Did I do the right thing?

[ndutton]

I was recommended to assess a non-running early model V-drive A-4 in a 1967 Cal 34. The lady that owns the boat had previously paid 3 different mechanics for assessments and the best 2 could say was, "it doesn't run" and the third left it in worse shape than when he got there. Her frustration at paying for nothing was discussed on another forum and since I was local I got the invitation.

The last running experience had the engine in forward gear at speed when the helmsman (not the owner) realized he'd passed the correct dock and immediately shifted to reverse without lowering the RPM. The engine revved up through neutral and instantly died in reverse, never to start again. The owner reports upon dying the ignition was left on for about an hour. One of the mechanics determined the reversing gear was stuck in reverse.

Attempted repairs by others since the episode are new solenoid, new distributor cap and new spark plugs.

Here is what I found:

1. The reversing gear shifted properly. I could turn the shaft by hand once neutral was found. Opening the gear cover showed the reversing gear rotated when the shaft coupler was turned by hand. This determined the V-drive was intact and functioning properly.
2. Pushing the starter button gave us nothing. No click at all. Testing the starter wire showed no voltage at the starter when the button was depressed. Examination of the starter button showed corrosion at the terminal. A quick clean up restored power to the solenoid when the button was depressed.
3. New solenoid mounted loose (poor ground) and physically broken. I replaced it with the old solenoid and attempted to crank. Got a click and a rattle but no crank. With the battery switch off I connected the positive battery cable directly to the starter, bypassing the solenoid. A quick bump with the battery switch gave no sound and no crank.
4. With difficulty I removed the starter and tried turning the flywheel by prying a flywheel tooth with a large screwdriver. Nuthin', engine frozen.
5. I pulled the new, unused spark plugs. The tips were rusty, all four. Plugs are two weeks old.
6. There is oil in the bilge. The oil level in the engine does not reach the dipstick.
7. The mounting nipple for the oil pressure sender wiggles at the block end.
8. Oil pressure gauge was non-functioning, I found it miswired. Sender wire was found to be intact, no break or short.

My assessment:
Serious loss of oil, possible catastrophic internal damage.
Water incursion. The brand new rusty plug tips led me there.

My recommendations:
Given the age and condition of the boat and that the owner is non-mechanical I suggested the cost of professional repair/replacement - IF she could find a trustworthy mechanic - would likely exceed the value of the boat. I could not with any conscience recommend spending more on this particular engine. Replacement with a running take-out would probably be her best option if a suitable engine could be found at a suitable price. The trustworthy mechanic issue remained.

Opinions??

[Al Schober]

Neil,
Although there may be 'catastrophic' internal damage, I'd be suspicious that the rings are just rusted to the block (due to the water). I've rescued 'frozen' engines in the past.
Kudos, however, on your diagnosis of the electrical 'no voltage' issues - any one of which could have been the show stopper.
Where is this boat?

Al

[ndutton]

Boat is located in Long Beach, Cali.

The removal, tear down and proper assessment was destined to cost her even more money. I considered rusty rings with Dave Neptune's engine experience in my mind but if so, she likely would have sticky valves in her future and remember, she's paying dearly for repairs. We know she was pumping oil into the bilge with the compromised oil pressure nipple and that her oil pressure gauge was not functioning. Even if it were, it's located inside a cockpit seat hatch out of view.

I therefore could not discount the possibility it was run dry and the resultant damage.

[Loki9]

Aren't you supposed to advise the owner to buy the MMI manual and then explain that rebuilding the A4 is something that she can do in her kitchen at minimal cost, then point her to the threads about pulling the motor using the boom and the main sheet, etc....?

[keithems]

from what i gather.....

more likely than not, the accessories are mostly ok....including the manifold, head, tranny, etc.

therefore, i'd recommend she get the mmi short block and move the accessories over....

i'd assume -- given don's and mmi's reputation, their short block would be almost like a new motor......replacing the a4 with a diesel is about 10,000 when all is said and done...

when i got my c&c 30 5 yrs ago, it came with a defunct a4 -- i managed to find another in boston for $800 -- it went fairly well till last summer -- the saga is well chronicled here -- if she can do that and is "handy", that's fine...but at the end of the day...3000 for an mmi short block is a good deal....plus she'll have all the parts left over from the defunct motor....as i do....extra tranny, acc drive, w-pump, carb, fuel pump, manifold, distrib ...they almost add up to the cost of the mmi short block! -- or she can keep them, as i have, in case she needs spares.....

and -- fwiw -- there are few mechanics who know jack about the a4 -- i wish there were, believe me -- but the best experts are don and his crew and all of you on this forum -- who have been there, done that....

i believe quite strongly that sailing is about self sufficiency [sp.?] with the help of others [mmi folks and afourians].....

if you don't know almost everything there is to know about your boat -- or at least have good resources to help you out -- you shouldn't be sailing it...

[Baltimore Sailor]

Why not pop the head off and have a look inside? If the only other choice is calling it dead, what can you lose by pulling it and checking the condition of the cylinders?

[roadnsky]

Tough One...

I agree that if she's not able to do the work herself, the biggest hurdle is to find a competent mechanic. I think that is priority one.
Is it fair to say you're not in a position to fill the bill?
How is her financial situation?
That might determine which path(s) she has available to her now.

I hope this isn't throwing him under the bus here, but isn't Dave from near there?
May be worth it to ask him if he's got the time to do some mechanic work for her?
(Of course, it'd be nice if she has the finances to pay for his time)
That would certainly give her some better options.

Sorry Dave...

[ndutton]

I simply do not have the time to take on a project like this at any price and I did not charge her for the 5 hours spent yesterday feeling she was due for an honest evaluation without the assessor having a financial interest in the outcome. We enjoyed a lunch on her dime at a very nice restaurant within walking distance of her boat which was more than sufficient for me.

I admit my recommendations were made without a deep inspection. I think the engine is repairable but once you factor in the expense of professional services the entire strategy changes. We've all agreed here many times, if our only involvement in boat repairs and maintenance was writing checks the majority of us would not own a boat. I know I wouldn't.

I'm not suggesting she's not capable. I think the learning curve is long though and expensive. She has business and family demands on her time as do all of us. Tools and a suitable work area seemed to be an issue too.

Our discussion over finances, a major factor in this case, centered around the potential expense of a successful conclusion as compared to the boat's value both in terms of resale and value to her personally. Her available resources are none of my business, that's a decision for her alone.

[67c&ccorv]

Busted...

Pull it and use it for parts...time to find another A4 if she wants to keep the boat.

Maintenance is everything...

[sastanley]

Neil, I think it is 'proper' to be realistic with people. Everyone wants the sunny side up and all that, but it isn't always fields of daisies.

Boating is not cheap...some of us can manage to afford to continue to boat by saving money and not paying someone to do everything for us...others just write a check..good for them...if she does not have the proper skills herself, nor the time, to develop them, at least giving her an honest assessment was definitely the right thing to do.

[Marian Claire]

Regardless of the mechanical/A-4 side I think you have a hands-down right on the human side. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[roadnsky]

I simply do not have the time to take on a project like this at any price and I did not charge her for the 5 hours spent yesterday feeling she was due for an honest evaluation without the assessor having a financial interest in the outcome. We enjoyed a lunch on her dime at a very nice restaurant within walking distance of her boat which was more than sufficient for me....
Her available resources are none of my business, that's a decision for her alone.

Neil-
I sincerely hope you didn't mis-interpret my earlier missive...

I think that most of us here on the forum know you well enough by now that we can be certain you did the right thing for her.
AND I also never meant to imply you wouldn't or couldn't do more to help her going forward.
(Same goes to Dave, when I threw out his name for possible help)

As I said earlier, if she isn't able to take this job on, she must find a mechanic she can trust and rely on.

Obviously, finances are a very personal and private thing.
Not knowing how she feels about laying out a lot more boat bucks, makes decision making for anyone but her difficult.
One of the many reasons most of us are DIY'ers are because we have a limited amount of $$.

This is a really tough situation and we ALL wish we could "pull her thru".
I for one, will be very interested to know how this works out.

[ndutton]

No worries Jerry, I didn't take your post as derogatory at all. It's one of the things that endears me to this forum. You invite opinions and you get 'em.

[yeahjohn]

I am so close to having my A4 going nicely. NDutton I buy very nice meals etc etc and have a rather cool family. We are in Dana Point. Want to come down for the day and look at our A4 =)

[systemek]

N Dutton, the marine/electric/A4 saint. Your advice is probably 10 times more solid than the advice of 10 mechanics advice she might have paid for. The probability that fixing this engine will exceed the cost of the boat is very high. I know that I fall into that category 3 times over, but I enjoy the learning journey almost more than the destination....she does not sound like she falls into this category, so your advice is spot on.