Possible bad Facet fuel pump?

[TomG]

After perusing the Fuel topics, I still can't find what I'm looking for... perhaps the A-4 Braintrust can shed some light.

The Background: I am bringing back to life a Tartan 30 that had been re-powered with an MMI A-4 in 2008. The engine is in wonderful condition: no leaks, drips, cracks, good compression, etc. Tartan 30s are noted for corrosion in the metal fuel tank, and a previous owner decommissioned the steel tank and installed a poly tank, but moved the new tank pretty far aft in a sail storage locker. The A-4 is located just behind the mast right over the keel. I estimate the fuel line run to be 15 feet or so and probably close to a neutral lift (fuel pump is about the same level as the tank).

The Issue: The PO last used the boat in summer 2009. Although the engine was winterized with anti-freeze, the fuel system was never drained. Yesterday, I tackled the fuel system and discovered what I thought I would find: half a tank of water-logged ethanol laden gasoline. I completely removed the tank from the boat, drained and cleaned it. I blew out the old fuel from the fuel line, drained the carb and the electric fuel pump. One of my findings makes me think I might have other issues... at the fuel tank, the fuel pick-up tube has a twist shutoff valve and a one-way check valve. The check valve was completely block with the gummy varnish goo typical of ethanol laced fuel. A little work and acetone had the check valve cleaned up, but that finding stuck with me (pun not intended).

In addition to cleaning the fuel lines and tank, I also replaced the the original fuel/water separator with a new Racor fuel filter/water separator.

After everything was buttoned back up, I used a manual suction pump to prime the fuel line from the tank all the way through the new Racor filter. All that's left is to get the fuel to the carb.

The Problem: After jumping the oil pressure safety switch, the little Facet electric fuel pump does its little clicky thing, but I get no fuel out. Nada. I know I have fuel ten inches away at the Racor filter (it's full). I let the fuel pump run for probably 30 to 40 seconds twice.

The Questions:
1. Could the fuel pump be gummed up like the check valve I found?

2. Can the pump be running (clicking) but still be bad?

3. Can the Facet pump be disassembled?

4. Does the length of the run (15 feet) indicate that the higher pressure pump offered by MMI might work better?

Thanks for any advice!

[ndutton]

In a word, yes

1. Could the fuel pump be gummed up like the check valve I found?
Yes

2. Can the pump be running (clicking) but still be bad?
Yes

3. Can the Facet pump be disassembled?
Yes, somewhat. There's a screen filter accessible in the bottom cap but there are several other internal components not accessible.



4. Does the length of the run (15 feet) indicate that the higher pressure pump offered by MMI might work better?
Yes

Replacing the pump solves all these possibilities.

Although pumps push better than they suck, don't be tempted to locate the pump near the tank. I seem to recall a USCG requirement that the pump must be mounted within 1 foot of the engine.

[joe_db]

You can put a hose with an outboard primer bulb on the OUTPUT side of the pump as a temporary measure to get fuel sucked in to prime it.

[ArtJ]

you should remove the main passage plug and pump a cup full of fuel
thru it. Be careful to put a rag under the plug so you don't loose it in'
the bilge. This will both clean out any crud as well as prime the system
right into the carb.

Regards

Art

[roadnsky]

Tom-
No insult intended here, so please excuse me if this sounds that way...

Are you certain the lines are hooked up correctly?
IN to in and OUT to out?
(The OUT is at the top of the pump)
Don't ask me why I'm asking this question...

For reasons I'd rather not explain, I consider myself a Facet connoisseur.

[TomG]

Thanks for all the replies.

I called Ken at MMI this afternoon intending to buy a new pump. Ken graciously spent about 15 minutes with me going over my history and the symptoms. Ken was very emphatic that ANY air trapped in the lines will cause great consternation at the electric fuel pump and recommended that I make very sure all the air is purged out of the line all the way through the pump. He recommended using a primer bulb "for diagnostic reasons only" to get the system good and completely primed (as Joe mentioned), then see if the little pump does its thang. He WAS interested in the length of the run, but felt that my problem was most likely caused by trapped air.

I have to say that once again I am so very impressed with the philosophy of all the folks at Moyer Marine. Imagine calling a place that sells boat parts fully intending to buy part but being advised by the sales person that it might be something altogether different and to hold off buying that part. That is the definition of customer service! Thanks Ken!

I am also impressed with the responsiveness of this forum. Thanks for all the advice gentlemen!

Neil, thanks and thanks for the cutaway of the pump. I always wondered what lurked inside that thing.

Joe, Thanks and I think I'll try that.

Art, Thanks and will do. Also, I've never dropped anything into the bilge.

Jerry, apparently you've seen my work! Believe me, if there is a way to wire it backwards, plumb it backwards, or tie it backwards, I could do it! In this case however, I am certain that it is plumbed correctly, but I appreciate the thought.

[ndutton]

One thing Tom and I'm really sticking my neck out contradicting Ken's advice - -

After changing my spin-on fuel filter cartridge it's always full of air and I regularly use the electric fuel pump - mounted after the filter - to purge it. The Facet draws the air out with no problem within maybe 30 - 45 seconds. I even have a system permanently wired and plumbed in - USCG compliant as mentioned in the '2 pumps' thread - to accomplish this.

edit:
Question #1 in your original post mentions a gummed up system. Taking that at face value I'd replace the pump on principle even if the problem is trapped air as Ken suggests. These pumps don't cost that much and you won't be wonderin'. My policy is always aggressive replacement and repair, even before a system fails. I replaced my working Facet with a new one only because I had no idea of it's history when I bought the boat. Reason enough for me. It's the same as we all do with spark plugs, dist cap, rotor, impellers, fuel filters, etc. I just take it 3 steps further. Why wait for failure?

[TomG]

She runs!

Following Ken's and Joe's advice, I used my outboard fuel tank and primer bulb to fully purge any trapped air in the fuel line. Pushed about a beer can's worth of fuel through the line, Racor filter, and Facet fuel pump.

I then re-connected all the lines, pulled the choke, and turned the key.

I think I had to crank it about 2 seconds before she came to life. This is an engine that sat dormant for at least 18 months!

She's a little rough at idle (I added the PCV kit over the winter) and probably needs a little tweaking, but I'll do all that in the water. It's hard to keep up with the amount of cooling water she needs while on the hard.

Anyway, thanks for all the help. 'Bout time to get her wet!

[Marian Claire]

Hope this is overkill but I would test the pump. Disconnect at carb and bypass the oil switch and observe the flow. A gummed up pump can provide enough fuel for short/low RPM runs, especially after priming the system with the bulb, but can not support extended high RPM runs. This can also be tested at the dock when you splash her by running under load at cruising RPMs. Sorry: but based on what I have experienced. Dan S/V Marian Claire