Hard starting after sitting for a week...

[Chris Simenstad]

Hello all:

Last week my daughter and I went our for a weekend cruise. My boat had been idle for a few weeks as I had been replacing chainplates after a two week Delta cruise. During that trip I had put about 25-30 hours on the engine and it ran fine. The gas in the tank was put in at the end of that cruise about a month ago.

I now have to crank the engine for like 2-3 minutes, then it finally starts like normal, and then runs like a champ.

It will start fine 2-3 hours later, and even the next day (like it did last weekend). But after 3-4 days we did a mid-week beer can race this week, and the same thing happened. Hard to start, then runs fine.

I'm thinking this is a fuel problem?

I have a Sierra water filter, and a polishing filter right upstream of the carb. I was thinking I'd replace both and run some fuel through the carb.

Any other suggestions? Fuel pump is mechanical.

Thanks,
Chris

[Mo]

First ensure your choke is opening and closing properly.

If the choke is working good....Take the dipstick out and smell the oil. You are looking for a hint of gas smell and maybe / maybe not an increase in the oil level. Sometimes a small perforation of the fuel pump diaphragm can cause difficulty starting. Once the diaphragm has worked enough to build up pressure the engine will run fine until the hole gets big enough to loose pressure running. You may also have a hint of gas smell in the boat.

That said..if you have done any work on the fuel system double check your work. Check that dipstick first though OK. Then look and see if there are any loose clamps etc with a small leak. A few years back I had a friend that had the same issue...as soon as I stuck my nose in his boat there was this quasi gas smell...not real strong, but definately gas...I went right for the broken diaphragm check and that was it.

That guy just put on an electric fuel pump and the world was right. I think he rebuilt the manual pump as a backup. He was up and running in a couple of hours.

EDIT: PS....if it does turn out to be a pump / diaphram issue change your oil with the pump OK.

[edwardc]

Another possibility is sticking valves.

If so, a little MMO in the oil at each change will clear it up over time. I've had this happen on my A4.

I also used to have a Honda Civic that did this same thing. With daily use, it started fine. Left unused over a weekend, and it was hard to start the first time. Then ran fine. Finally, one time I left it for a 2 week vacation. Upon return it would not start. Spark, fuel, and timing were all good, but it would not pop, even with the evil starting fluid.

After almost 5 min of trying, it finally started to "pop" a little, and eventually started. Based on my A4 experience, I put MMO in the oil. By the time I got to the next oil change, the hard starting with disuse had gone away.

[JOHN COOKSON]

In any case remember to do short cranking bursts. 7-8 seconds cranking then an equal amount of time resting before the next try. The starter motor will like it better this way.

TRUE GRIT

[capnward]

I have a mechanical fuel pump, and I usually work the bail under it to get fuel pressure into the carb before starting. It starts quicker that way, less wear on the starter. I do a burst of three or four seconds, wait about that long before another one, and usually it starts on the second burst. Of course this requires everything else to be in order. It will start without the priming, but takes more cranking. I should add, however, that this time of year I am running it almost every day.
I put MMO in the oil and the gas, and have never had to even inspect the valves in 2500 hours of operation since the rebuild in 2000.
Although, this spring when it first started, there was a clicking noise for the first minute or so, until oil got worked through. The A4 has been running very well all summer, so far. This winter I will put more oil under the spark plugs, before hibernation.

[sastanley]

Chris, Confirm the choke closes all the way first. If you have time to fiddle with it, the sticky valve thing could also definitely be a cause..to check that you need to put a thumb over the spark plug hole to see if you have compression in all the cylinders. If you do have sticky valves, I also recommend putting a couple squirts of MMO from an oil can in the plug holes before your next two week layup..squirt and then turn the engine over (no starting, just trying to move the oil around in the cylinder and into the valve stems) and let it sit. That works the other side of Ed's recommendations. I used to have #4 missing all the time, and it took all summer, but it finally broke loose. I still squirt MMO in the cylinders when I lay it up for winter...and turn it over with the hand crank every visit to the boat until spring.

[Chris Simenstad]

bad fuel...

Thanks everyone for the replies. Last week went over to sail our Wednesday night beer can. There had been about 2 gallons of gas in the tank, and so we brought 5 gallons with us. As always, I added some MMO and Stabil to the gas, and unscrewed the deck fill to transfer the gas from the can to the tank.

To my dismay, the deck fill, which is in the cockpit floor, wasn't tight at all. So for over a month, any time I hosed down the boat--or when I got soaked sailing back from the Delta six weeks ago--water was likely getting into the gas tank.

I switched out the Sierra filter, and emptied out the sediment bowl in the fuel pump. The gas in the sediment pump was like chicken stock. What I poured out of the Sierra filter was clear, but after two minutes it too clouded up.

I also changed the polishing filter between the pump and the carb. After that, the engine started right up and we had a great sail.

The gas tank is 12 gallons. So I have two gallons of bad gas with 5 of clean fuel.

So now do I try to pump it all out, or add another 5 gallons and further dilute whatever water is in the tank?

[JOHN COOKSON]

You cannot "dilute" water out of ethanol laced gasoline. The ethanol attracts water then the ethanol-wate phase separates and sinks to the bottom of the tank right where the pick up tubes is. Short of redistilling there is no way to split the ethanol + water phase.
You need to pump the tank.

TRUE GRIT

[ndutton]

To quote Shawn, 5 gallons of good gas added to 1 gallon of bad gas equals 6 gallons of bad gas.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=60306&postcount=3

[Chris Simenstad]

How do I safely pump the gas out of the tank?

[Chris Simenstad]

Went down one rabbit hole, and then another...

After finding water in the gas, and discovering that the carb leaked, I thought I had a fuel problem. Nearly two months later, I had given the fuel system a going through (pumped the tank, changed filters, and hoses and installed a new carburetor). I also installed new spark plugs, and a new PCV valve in the indigo kit.

With the new carb and other parts, and fresh gas, the engine started great, and made the engine rune much more smoothly! BUT I could not believe that the intermittent shutdowns continued!

Reading the Moyer Manual, I tried to again decide if it was a fuel or ignition problem. The shutdowns happened at various engine temps; sometimes it restarted immediately, and other times, after a few minutes of cranking. If it were still a gas problem, my next move would have been to pull the fuel pump, and also (perhaps) the gas tank to see if there was debris that may have been clogging the pick up tube.

Could it be ignition?

I checked all ignition and ground connections on the engine while the engine was running. All seemed solid. When I unscrewed the gauge panel in the cockpit to look behind it, the engine shut down. I started it again, and when I put the panel in motion, again, the engine died.

The connections on all the gauges were all solid, but when I put pressure on the key in the ignition switch, the engine died. The two-position switch, probably original, and always exposed to the elements, was failing.

So, while I had crappy fuel which gunked up the carb, I also had a shoddy connection in the primary ignition circuit.

Replaced the switch--it was challenging to find a two-position one locally--and the engine now runs very well without a single problem. It was interesting to feel the action of the key in the new switch compared to the old: a much more positive of a "click," while the old one felt mushy by comparison.

Moral of the story: sometimes a problem may have more than one cause, or there may be in fact two problems. I think the hard starting was due to the fact that the gas line had little gas when I went to start it (due to the fact that the carb had leaked,) but obviously the bad switch was adding to the problems and causing the shutdowns.

Thanks again to everyone for offering the insight. Reading these and other threads, and the Moyer Manual, really helped me. Now I'm glad to have the engine up and running. Going to give it an oil change or two next...

[joe_db]

Our old boats frequently have multiple issues.
Good job tracking them all down.

[sastanley]

Chris, I started from the top and was just thinking that maybe there was water in the fuel and the filter was choked with water and not letting any fuel thru the system (the excessive cranking to start without other symptoms.) I once had this phenomenon, when it turns out the o-ring in my filler let lots of water in the tank..the poor thing ran until I saturated the filter and no more gas could get thru..I would drain the filter of water and she would run until the filter got saturated again. (a fuel pressure gauge helped diagnose this..the pressure slowly dropped as the filter collected the water and the carb starved!)

Anyway, it may have been part of the issue, but it sounds like you found the primary problem.