3 out of 4 ain't bad... isn't good either

[Pater]

The 1969 A4 In the Irwin 28 was sitting for 11 years when I bought her. after some work, I was able to get it to start and run on 3 cylinders. The #1 cyl. has an exhaust valve stuck open. As a novice, I was unaware that I ought to shut off the raw water petcock when having to crank the engine beyond the few seconds it had taken at the beginning of the season. Now, after getting water in the oil, and finding I have 70lbs compression in #2, 75 lsb in #3 and 80lbs in #4. I am looking at pulling the head, the manifold, and valve case cover to get at the two repairs I think I might be able to do myself and in the boat. I have worked on small air cooled flat heads before so I am aware of the need to be careful in releaving the torque in a pattern, then gently prying between the two gaskets before wedging then lifting. Any suggestions on removing the head, or pointers on freeing the stuck valve would be greatly appreciated.

[msauntry]

Might be able to free up the valve with a bent screwdriver, and a few oil changes can get rid of the water in the oil, so you might get off pretty easy! There are other posts here that go into detail on the valve/bent screwdriver trick. Browse around those for a bit and see if you think it will work in your situation.

Good luck!

[sastanley]

Pater..

Welcome to the group..I am a newbie as well...and have read so much on this board it makes my head spin, but I already have my (new to me) A-4 running better than it probably has in 10 years.

Start off by doing a lot of searching and a lot of reading. You can likely get this motor running better without pulling the head and all the extra work you are anticipating. If you don't have it already, I highly recommend as your first repair tool to buy Moyer's book. It is the bible, and worth its weight in gold.

Start by pulling the spark plug on #1..you may be able to free up the valve by tapping (whacking?) it with an allen wrench or similar shaped tool. Also..while you have the plugs out, squirt (5 or 6 good squirts, I use an oil can with a flexible tube) some Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) in each cylinder..this is the magic elixir for the A4. With regular application, it will help free up sticky valves, and clear out all kinds of stuff.

After that...start changing the oil to get rid of the water...it is very difficult to remove all of the oil with each change, so Don Moyer recommends 3 or 4 changes to remove all the water in the oil. Don't worry, the water in the crankcase has happened to all of us early on.

After a couple of MMO treatments to the cylinders/pistons/valves and some fresh oil with no water in it, I'd try a compression check again, and go from there.

Good Luck,
Shawn
Catalina 30 #511

edit - Whoops...there I go being too longwinded again..msauntry beat me to it!

[Pater]

3 out of 4 ain't bad ...

Thanx guys, somebody suggested using a wooden dowel to whack the stuck valve with a "medium machinist hammer". Whew, won't I bend the shaft? When I called the technical support line this afternoon the fellow also said to soak the valve stem and guide with Marvel M.O.. I didn't challenge him on it but wouldnt spraying the stem and guide with AeroKroil or some other penetrating oil be more likely to be effective? The fellow also suggested I open the valve case and check the tappet clearance adjustments. If I'm going to open the case, couldn't I push the stem up, thereby breaking the rust ring holding the valve stuck open without running the risk of deforming/bending the stem?

[sastanley]

The Previous Owner (P.O.) of my boat was my father..He was able to pull the head and ream the valve guides after drowning the engine with salt water (twice!) and get it to run again after chatting with the folks at Moyer Marine - Pulling the head seems drastic to me, and I am trying to improve the engine from that situation I received it in without major work (he was retired, and I simply don't have the time.)

I would recommend following the advice of the folks you chat with at Moyer and the other posters here that have 'been there, done that.' - MMO seems to me to be a great tool for this engine...it works in the upper cylinders to free up sticky valves when you squirt it in the spark plug holes, and Moyer also suggests running some in the fuel to keep the fuel system running smooth. I personally do not know what AreoKroil (since I've never heard of it) would do to the motor..I've bought MMO from Wal-Mart for about $3.75 per quart. I've had nothing but success so far following the advice on this forum

[msauntry]

Adding 8oz. of MMO per 10 gallons of gas will help prevent sticky valves and rings. The bottle calls for 4oz. but "The Board" has recommended doubling that amount as long as you don't start seeing smoke.

If you decide to open up the valve cover, you can probably slather on any liquid you like to help free up the valve.

[Pater]

3 out of 4

I squirted the heck out of all the cyiliners (about 2 oz. each) then cranked it over with the plugs out and let her sit for a week. I've pulled the #1 plug, opened the distributor cap and bumped the engine to #1 TDC, there was a valve open when I looked into the head through the plug hole with a drop light. I took an allen key and with a hammer, tapped on the valve head (trying to stay flust with the top). It moved on the fourth whack. I put the cap back on, replaced the spark plug and wire, cranked and ..... nothing. Macushla's on the hard, what I did hear was water blowing out of the transome exhaust hole. I checked the plugs and they were wet with water again. I found a drain screw on the aft side of the muffler but was unable to remove it. Perhaps that ought to be today's project. I've pumped the oil and replaced it twice, but since I haven't been able to get the engine to start, haven't been able to get it "up to temperature". A friend who's a marine mechanic by trade keeps warning me about turning the engine over without water supplied to the pump. He keeps saying I'll burn up the impeller. I'd appreciate a little guidance here please.

[rigspelt]

...keeps warning me about turning the engine over without water supplied to the pump. He keeps saying I'll burn up the impeller. I'd appreciate a little guidance here please.

I am new to the A4 this year, but I've read Don's notes and posts here and in his publications, and the consistent experience seems to be that ordinary cranking dry until the engine fires should not damage the impeller. Of course, I imagine there is a limit to the amount of cranking before damage might occur, but it seems to me from my reading and watching that getting so much water in the exhaust from a non-starting engine that it backs into the manifold and onto the valves is a much greater risk. I guess after a bad stretch of cranking dry a person could pop the water pump cover to check the impeller for reassurance.

[Pater]

Just a thought

When I first started this project, I had the boat sitting next to the garage with what looked like the original oberdorfer pump. Before I had bought a complete new pump and installed it, I started the motor with the old pump still in place, ran it for a good several minutes until the block was warm to the touch (140-150F). I wonder if I could disconnect the hose from the seacock to the pump and the hose from the pump to the "T", and fill the two lengths with antifreze, then with a short piece of pipe or a double barb connect the two. If I place a piece of gorilla tape over the open end of the "T", and crank the engine I won't be doing any harm to the new pump, and I ought to be able to (after draining the lift muffler) just concentrate on getting the valve in #1 to close tight regularly, then getting the engine to start, get the engine warm enough and thoroughly mix the remaining water with the fresh oil so I can make change # 3 more effective in getting her cleaned up. Sound like a reasonable plan?
Thanks.

[Pater]

OK now what?

I removed the flame arrester and cleaned out the water and reddishbrown looking gop. I disconnected the hose from the seacock and stuffed a long funnel in it. Filled that with pink anti freeze and started cranking. She started on the third try, blowing water and anti freeze out the exhaust, but only on three cylinders. Stopped and checked still 0 compression in #1 cyl. After a lot of wedging and prying with crow bars I finally got the head off. I removed the carb & manifold and found there's a small copper tube attached to the underside of the carb just aft of the throat and ahead of the bend. This I've been told is supposed be attached to the intake manifold to suck out "condensate". It wasn't attached to the manifold. I opened the valve gallery and found that the valves in #1,#2 and the intake in #3 had no clearance. The #3 exhaust had 6 thoundths, the #4 intake had 8 and the exhaust had 10, this corresponds to the compression readings I had gotten before (ie: 0 in #1, 60 in #2, 70 in #3, and 85 in #4). An old friend who used to work on flat heads lent a spring compressor to me, and with the aid of a plastic headed hammer & magnet, I was able to get the valves to snap free of the springs and caught the keepers with the magnet. I remember I read to keep the valves in order, so I'm drilling 8 - 5/16 holes in a block of wood to hold the valves in order. From what I can see the #1 intake valve only recently started making contact with the seat no nice even shiny line on the contact face, several rusty lumps and the seat is black and crusty. The #1exhaust valve top doesn't look round and the shiny contact line is uneven in width. The intake valves stems for the other three Cyl.s appear to have a thinning space (looks like it's 1/16th smaller in dia.) that is black and crusty but ends before the point where it enters the guide.
So with all of this said, should I: A) just try to grind the two valves for #1 and lap them all in? or B) buy 2 new valves for #1 and lap them all in? or C) replace all of the valves, find the right mandrel and the appropriate grinding wheels and grind the seats then lap in the new valves? or D) Just clean them all up really well, put them back in and set the "proper clearences" and let them beat themselves back into the seats? Help?
Before I get too nuts about this I just would appreciate if Don or someone else could give me a little insight. Thanks.

[sastanley]

Pater,
This sounds like a similar issue I may have. I know the P.O. of my boat spoke with Ken & Don quite a bit and did re-grind some valve guides/seats, etc.. to get some compression back into the motor with success. That amount of success is still to be determined when I try to fire up the motor this spring, so in the meantime, I'll be following your thread!

P.S.> Good idea on the simple block with holes to keep the valves organized...I would have taped/sharpied, and thrown them in a ziploc or left them laying in the bilge or something and made a mess!

[lat 64]

Can o' worms

Hi Pater,
I had a similar problem.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2978

Even if you are just an amateur, You seem to be very observant of detail.
If you can feel any wear at all on your valve stems, they are probably worn out. But, they should be measured with a micrometer, and then we can give a better-informed opinion. The comment "The #1exhaust valve top doesn't look round and the shiny contact line is uneven in width." tells me that this valve is bent and/or burned.

If the guides are too worn, then the mandrel will wobble in the guide and the grinding stone will make a mess of the seat.

I would not grind just a couple of valves.
Putting this motor back together with minimal repair will disappoint you in short order. You will have good money in gaskets and such and the engine will just be running on borrowed time. The big picture is looming.

The problem as I see it is to get a willing machinist or good motor hobbiest(hot rodder)to do field work. But if you can, find someone to come check the engine and if they can, do a proper valve grind in the boat. This was done in the old days but I don't know about anymore. I would not bother to buy the valve grinding gear—it is way too pricey. And I even used to rebuild engines. You will have enough on your plate just cleaning the grit and dirt from engine after the grind.

Good luck,
Russ

[Pater]

Ok

Thanx Lat 64, So I take it you believe I ought to relace both valves for #1. scrap options #1 & 4 and not try to mandrel grind the seats. I have access to a machinist hand screw lathe and I did a turn in my dad's machine shop 40 years ago so trimming up the valves, while a challenge is something I could do. I have lapped in valves in a few air cooled shaved flat head, high compression twins, so if I can find the dowel with the set of suction cups I'll find the "Diamond Dust" lapping compound. A 2 inch long quarter inch dowel with a fair glob of dried silicone balled up on the end with a little smear of white litho forms a good enough seal in the guide to keep the lapping compound from getting in there and a thick smear of bearing grease around the seat limits the spread of the powder/grinding residue and helps with the cleanup. I have a pal who is a Mercruiser Certified mechanic from the K&S outboard days who I raced against with my Atwater Scott. He's been a great help when he's available. Just that he's been working on people's boats where the $ are no object. So I appreciate your perspective as a shallow pocket sailor.

[lat 64]

To be, or not to be

Pater,
I guess what I meant is that we don't have all the facts yet. You need to get real measurements of the valve stems and guides to determine if the are too worn or not. (or bent) It just seemed to me from your description that one might be bent

If the guides are too worn, then the mandrel will wobble and not stay co-encentric with the valve seat. The grinding stone won't stay in one place during the grind and the valve may not seal. but you or the mechanic should have the final word on this—definitely not me.
A bent valve will show up when you put it in the chuck of the grinder and touch it to the wheel.


I always think a grind is better than a lap. And I think you should do the most and best repair/rebuild you can afford if you want it to last for some years. If your need is just to get through a season or two until you yank the whole thing out for a real do-over, then just do the least to get by. But these are judgement calls based on the service you expect from the engine. A lot of the cost and hassle in doing a valve job is the same weather you do it first class or not. That is why I tend to think "go for it—do it right" and do the best work you can while you are in there. I am also on a lean budget, so I understand.

I like old outboards too, I have a motley collection of ancient kickers. It drives my wife nuts

Russ—the shallow pocket cruiser

[Pater]

Next

Well we've pulled out and indexed the valves, springs & retainers, soaked them in my pal's vapor degreaser for about 3 days, washed them off in the parts washer and they almost look new. He thinks whoever cut them last, cut them "too shallow, and left them big". He thinks the valve contact /seat angle ought to be greater, but since the mechanics service manual he had has "grown legs and gone into hiding" he has asked me to find out what the "proper angle and diameter" ought to be. Thanx!