Atomic 4 decided to flood floor with water and oil

[bdkorth]

New to this posting thing, but have been reading lots of great advice off the site. While I was working on unsticking some stuck valves I have somehow run into a new, bigger problem. Short story here... I have always had some water in the bilge, but never enough to really worry too much. Never has been any water in the oil. Until last night. I checked on the boat last night and found not only the bilge was full, but overflowing. I had about 5 inches of standing water covering the floor of my Catalina 30. Mixed in with the oil was all my engine's oil. All of it. I pulled the dipstick and it didn't read. What could cause this? If it were water only I would suspect a through hull, but this had flushed all the oil from the engine. Could the water from the lift exhaust have done it, without having been cranking her over? I hadn't been to the boat in about 1.5 days, so the amount of water, needless to say, was alarming.

Any input as to possible culprits are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Brad

[Dave Neptune]

Water & Oil

Brad, I have had a similar problem and hope this is yours as if not about the only way yhe oil can run out of the engine is a hole in the pan or block (ouch) or the catastrophic failure of a seal which is unlikely as it would only be the oil running out.
Check your vented loop and see if the "vacuum break" malfunctioned. If it did it will allow water to slowly syphon into the exhaust from an open water valve or a closed one that leaks a little, fill the manifold then get to an exhaust valve and down through the cylinder displacing the "lighter weight" oil out through the dip stick and or the carburator. That was what that did the same thing to mine. If it was this senario that caused your problem the engine should be full of water as well which I didn't see mentioned in your quiery.
If so get the water out and get the motor re-lit asap and do a few oil changes after bringing the engine up to temperature. This fiasco probably didn't help your sticky valves either.

David

[bdkorth]

Update

Neptune,

Mine did the exact thing as yours. Yes, the engine was full. Positive pressure on the water so much that when I pulled a spark plug I got a small 'gusher'. Turns out that the last time I closed the water intake seacock it decided to fail, unbeknownst to me. Found that yesterday and have plugged it off. Most water out of engine, and oil out of bilge. Valves, as you predicted, still stuck. So I can't start her to cook the water out. Now I have the head sitting on my counter at home, and I will begin cleaning it and the block. Once the head was off, the valves aren't stuck anymore! Guess banging on the side of the head with a hammer to get it off loosened them up some. Whatever works... So I have some oil in her and will recoat the pistons and valves tomorrow to insure no rusting. Now I need to order the head gasket, exhaust gasket and thermostat gasket, then put her back together. Fingers are crossed... Anything I should think of, that I'm not, to check or replace easily now that I am in this far?

Thanks for the input

[sastanley]

bdkorth,

I also have a Catalina 30. What type of seacocks do you have? I am the second owner, and although the P.O. (previous owner) had replaced the original gate valves, the Croco seacocks were compromised when I took ownership.

My engine (before I owned it) was also drowned at least twice. One from over-cranking. Yours will likely come back to life, once we help you solve the problem.

I yanked my boat for the winter, and replaced every seacock with Marelon.

[67c&ccorv]

Makes one think there should be a backup shutoff valve after the through hull fitting that one could also close in case the through hull fitting fails!

[roadnsky]

3-way Valve

67c&ccorv-
That's exactly what I did "downstream" of the thru hull. I put a 3-way valve that allows me to in effect "backup" the raw water thru hull and also intake from a bucket for an acid flush. The added bonus is that if there is a major leak, I can also extend that hose to the flood and suck it out the exhaust. Assuming, of course, the engine is running AND the water pump will out-pump the incoming leak!

[Dave Neptune]

Water out!!!

Brad, hurry as much as you can and if you can give the engine a spin on the starter once in a while to keep the rust from etching the block where rusty parts rest against each other. Use a high detergent type of oil (most any good detergent engine oil will do) when you get her back together. You can also add a little liquid dishwashing soap (a couple of tablespoons or a little more) to the first batch of oil which will help to emulsify the water and salts into the oil for easier removal. Do a coulple of oil changes and don't run the engine under to much of a load the first oil change just let it run at a fast idle for a half hour or so or enough to get some temperature in the engine. Move it in and out of gear a couple of times to get the water out of the transmission parts. The second batch you can load the engine by placing it in gear and running against the docklines for a while, check the oil filler cap and see if it is collecting moisture from the water evaporating out, a good thing. When the cap stops collecting water and/or the whitish emulsified stuff most of the water/salt should be collected from the interior of the engine. Change it again and you should be ready to go. My model of boat is notorius for filling through the vented loop as ther is just no place close that can get you high enough above the water line. This method has worked for me very well.

Lots a luck! David

[bdkorth]

Great information!

I am not sure what the seacocks are made of throughout the boat. I know, I know. I should know that, and now that I have had my first real lesson in why I should know that I will certainly be learning! I am going to pull her in the next few weeks and do the bottom, replace all through hulls, and repack the packing for the prop. Sure wish Catalina had planned for a person needing to play around with that packing without having to cut a hole in the floor... I am going to put a backup valve inline after the failed seacock. That way I can get the work on the engine done before pulling the boat. I will certainly leave it there after replacing the failed one. I like the idea of redundancy. Thank you very much on the additional detailed information regarding the following oil changes and things to look for. The mechanic helping me may have thought of those, but I am glad to have the knowledge walking in. The information on this site is absolutely invaluable. I appreciate it very much.

In the online catalog it shows a gasket kit. Am I to believe it has pretty much every gasket needed to rebuild my A4? I currently only need the head, exhaust and thermostat gaskets, but might as well have the others in case I need them in the future...

Thanks again for all the help. I will update...

Brad

[rheaton]

Brad, I had the same problem on my Cataina 30(1978). It turned out I had a pin hole leak in the small plastic hose feeding my oil preasure guage. To find this I cleaned up the oil/water in the boat, filled the engine back up with oil, started the engine, and watched for the leak. Sure enough I saw a small stream of oil comming from this spot.

Before you clean things up, take a look around, to see if oil had been sprayed, or has concentrated in any specific area.

I also had water in my engine oil in side the engine. I can did have problems starting the engine previously. I had the through hull open a that time. I assume water found it's way in because of this. If you see grey in your engine oil, be sure to change your oil enine a number of times until all signs of water in your oil are gone.

Best of luck,

Russ

[msauntry]

I haven't been satisfied with the marelon valves. The handles flex alarmingly and I've had one break off while trying to close a sticky seacock. Play around with one in the store and see how much you trust the handle. I like the concept, just whish they had a beefier handle.

Shawn--
You mentioned a Groco valve failing. How was it compromised? Was this a ball valve, gate valve, or the older style tapered seacock?

[sastanley]

Micah...I had three of them, (engine intake, sink & head intake) and they were the older style with the rubber valve inside. Apparently there are rebuild kits, but I decided to replace them. Ah..after a little research it seems to be the SV series.

http://www.groco.net/SVC-MAN-07/Sec4/PDF/SV.pdf

Hopefully I will like the marelon, as I've already installed them. I can see that if they got sticky that they could be questionable due to the flexing handles. I actually had to cut the end of my 1-1/2" valve handle off because it was whacking the boat. It is huge compared to the old brass ball valve it replaced.

I also like the new Groco's with the plug in the side of them you can yank to turn the water pump into a bilge pump. If I ever have a catastrophe like that, I've probably got bigger problems than hoping my A-4 will keep the boat afloat.

[bdkorth]

Sidenote, Cat 30 packing...

I know this isn't an A4 question, but I see plenty of Catalina 30 owners on here, so a quick sidenote. I have to replace the packing on my prop shaft. Does anyone have any suggestions for access to it? Mine is directly beneath the floor, in front of the access panel in the floor. My Catalina is a 1975 model Hull 103. Do I have to pull her and put her on the hard for that? Also, I am going to order the gaskets for the repairs tomorrow. Anybody know if the full gasket set has most all of the necessary gaskets in it? No list on it stating which gaskets are included. I missed customer service today by 18 minutes. Darn timezones...

Thanks for any input.

Brad

[Dave Neptune]

Packing

Brad, I don't know how good your access is, however I have changed out my packing out many times in the slip!!! I used a rag and a couple of zip ties to hold down the flow which wasn't bad at all, in fact I didn't even let enough water in to activate the bilge pump. It only takes a few minutes to dig out the existing packing and you should have the replacements pre-cut before removing the packing nut!!
I have even replaced my packing gland and propshaft (a 3 day project) all it took was a little planning and "jury-riggin'", not recomended for the faint of heart though. It will certainly save a bunch-o-cash which could turn into a dinner and drinks to apease the misses if applicable!!

I would assume a "set of gaskets" would be complete!!!

David
1970 E-35 MkII original A-4

[rheaton]

Brad, I replaced my packing on my 78 Catalina 30 only because my survey indicated I needed to replace the hose between shaft tube and stuffing box. I needed to pull the shaft for this. The boat was out of the water at the time for winter storage. Reardless, I have heard of many folks replacing their stuffing while in the water.

Best of luck,
Russ

[msauntry]

If you can get the coupling off, you can slide the shaft aft enough to get the packing hose off. Maybe tighten the gland for a little extra grab on the shaft so you don't have to dive for it later.

This also works if you want to change or clean your prop. Pop in a wood plug as you push the shaft through the packing gland. It should still be in the cutlass bearing, so it shouldn't fall, but maybe tie a line around the prop for safety's sake. Then dive over and pull it out. When you reinstall it, just open up the packing gland push the shaft back in. It'll pop out the wood plug and you won't get more than a few drops of water in the boat.