Coating keel bolts?

[sailboatguy]

Shawn - that was from a shoal draft 1985 Catalina 30. The boat was on a trailer. The keel bolt nuts were removed and the boat was lifted up a bit. There was some glass over the seam. We hammered a few wedges in the seam and the keel dropped down. There was was thickened resin between the keel and hull. No adhesive or sealant keeping bilge water from around the bolts. The bolts and nuts looked good in the bilge but were eaten up below the nuts.

[sailboatguy]

This keel is from a 1971 Cal 33. Stainless bolts. There was adhesive between the keel and hull. Bilge was wet but the bolts passed the test of time - excellent condition.

[sastanley]

Thanks for the details...very interesting..that first one is a fatty!!!

[sailboatguy]

Rick - I've taken a keel off a Newport 27 and several N28's. Bolts always looked good. The hull joint of the N27 was very strong. These are all saltwater boats.

[sailboatguy]

Here's another picture of the C-30 keel coming off.

[sastanley]

Wow..no junk/slurry holding it together? I need to work on my sources and beat on them (not literally).

[sdemore]

OK guys, for the sake of the novices out here. You've found a problem with corroded keel bolts, so now what? I assume those are J bolts, with molten lead that flowed around them to make them part of the assembly. Do you dig out lead and repour it over replacements, try to melt the lead in place, what? How do you get that much heat applied to that large of a structure, or do you?

Inquiring minds are waiting to learn...

Steve

[ndutton]

OK guys, for the sake of the novices out here. You've found a problem with corroded keel bolts, so now what?

Here is the keel bolt replacement company founded by my longtime acquaintance and friend Don Huseman, former owner of Keelco.

http://www.keelboltrepair.com/

[Ram41662]

OK guys, for the sake of the novices out here. You've found a problem with corroded keel bolts, so now what? I assume those are J bolts, with molten lead that flowed around them to make them part of the assembly. Do you dig out lead and repour it over replacements, try to melt the lead in place, what? How do you get that much heat applied to that large of a structure, or do you?

Inquiring minds are waiting to learn...

Steve

There are several routes to go, depending on the level of damage, the conditions you are going to use the boat in, and even financial considerations.

If your are looking at complete replacement of the J-bolts, leave it to the experts. There are several reputable companies that can give you a fair price. I have a full workshop with the the equipment in theory to do such a project (a large oven, cranes, torches, ventilators, etc) but I wouldn't consider trying to tackle it. Simply put, I don't have the experience to do the job properly.

If you bolts are not safe and the false keel is loose, you can consider two options:

For "light sailing" you can sister in long lag bolts like the process used to fix a "Catalina Smile". This is a fairly easy to do option.

If you're looking for a more hardy option you can go with a alternative replacement method that involves drilling down into the ballast and from the side to insert new threaded rods with nuts and washers on each end. Again, this is something the average boat owner isn't equipped to do. It takes a very heavy duty drill and some specialized bits to get this work done.

With all three of these, only the "sistering lags bolts" option is relatively inexpensive, so you have to consider the cost too.

I'm sure the more experience member will have more options and might have different views from mine.

Good luck,
Rick

[Ram41662]

Rick - I've taken a keel off a Newport 27 and several N28's. Bolts always looked good. The hull joint of the N27 was very strong. These are all saltwater boats.

That's great to know. I'm at a tradeshow this week. However, as they say, "Rust Never Sleeps" (inside trade joke), so a buddy of mine who is in Quality Assurance/Quality Control who came over this week and did an ultrasound scan of the exposed sections of the bolts. He sent me a text saying they looked good. The bolts showed minimal fatigue, better than expected from 44 year old bolts. He attributed part of their condition to, in his opinion, they are over-sized for the loads applied.

Things on this boat are looking better every day.

[sailhog]

sailboatguy, We need more background. That is no obvious C-30 bilge, and is that what you found when removing the plywood in the middle? Did Catalina still do that in 1985??

I have it on decent authority (not the manufacturer, but Max Munger, well known in C-30 land and a personal friend whom I respect) that he is not aware of any C-30 keel failure from bolt fatigue..the "slurry" used during manufacture in that timeframe holds the keel to the boat just fine and it often takes a chain saw to break the hull apart from the keel even after the bolts/nuts are removed.

Years ago I read a thread on another forum about a fellow who took it upon himself to drop the keel of his Catalina 30 due to suspected crevice corrosion of his keel bolts. If I remember correctly, the keel wouldn't drop after the bolts had been cut off in the bilge... so he took a chainsaw to the keel stub. It took a LONG time and he was stunned by how far he had to saw through the keel stub before the keel finally came off. After a massive amount of work and a whole lot of money, he somehow either fashioned another keel or had one made (my memory fails here, but it seems there was a Canadian company involved at this point). Long story short, he gets the new keel attached to a newly fashioned keel stub with shiny new bolts rising up through the bilge... He splashes the boat only to see little pools of water forming around the keel bolts after a few days. It's a chronic leaking problem, with saltwater weeping up into the bilge. Again, my memory isn't so great on this, but I recall coming away from the story convinced it was a massive waste of time and money. Told myself: I ain't never doing that.

In 2011 a friend helped me "fix" my Catalina smile. Using a heavy cloth/roving and West Systems, we wrapped the leading edge of the smile and then worked all the way aft. It took just a few hours for a couple of days. I know it isn't a structural "fix" and I was told by very knowledgeable folks at the yard that the next time a haul that the glass around the smile would surely show the stress from the slight movement of the keel. I've hauled three times since then, and there is no stress fracture, which, to me, indicates the keel isn't moving at all. Neil's mention of developing solutions on old bolts to problems that may not exist... roger that..

Should mention, my boat is a 1980 Catalina shallow draft, hull #1828.

[ndutton]

Good post sailhog. It's a testament to the builders of 40+ years ago that these keel attachments have survived as well as they have. Consider the forces on the hull/external keel joint especially the leveraging forces while heeled under sail. The loads are many times greater than simply holding dead weight.

I've read on other forums where dock experts abound that 1960's -70's boats were overbuilt and heavy because the builders didn't know what they were doing. It seems to me the proven track record says otherwise.

[sailhog]

It's a testament to the builders of 40+ years ago that these keel attachments have survived as well as they have. Consider the forces on the hull/external keel joint especially the leveraging forces while heeled under sail. The loads are many times greater than simply holding dead weight.

A thought popped into my head when I read this... I've owned my C-30 for eleven years now and have sailed on maybe three or four other C-30s in that time period. One thing I noticed is that there's a "shimmy" or wobble that I can feel at the wheel of my boat. On the other C-30s it isn't there. The steering is nice and tight. I later learned that the shimmy is from the wear that occurs where the rudder post rises up through the glass in the steering quadrant (you can by an epoxy fix kit from Catalina Direct to deal with it). But your boat has to be sailed for a long, long time before this develops. The shimmy doesn't develop if it's just sitting at the dock. The point is, those leveraging forces Neil mentions have been working on the keel attachments of my boat while heeled under sail much more than most other C-30s its age, as evidenced by the wobbly rudder post. The previous owners were obviuosly active sailors. So... it stands to reason that if the keels on C-30s ever begin to fail, you'd think mine should be one of the first to go. It's is the canary in the coal mine. And yet... the glass that I placed around the stub in 2011 shows absolutely none of the separation you would expect if there was any danger. My humble opinion... our C-30s are going to die some day, but they're going to die with their keels attached...

[ndutton]

One thing I noticed is that there's a "shimmy" or wobble that I can feel at the wheel of my boat. I later learned that the shimmy is from the wear that occurs where the rudder post rises up through the glass in the steering quadrant (you can by an epoxy fix kit from Catalina Direct to deal with it)

My opinion: Sometimes Catalina comes up with horrible repair schemes and this poured-in-place epoxy rudder slop repair is one of them*. Not only can it be a disaster but even if it works it applies steering drag inside the rudder tube in an area that is not bearing. Here are a couple of threads on the subject from forum member RUSSELL:

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8239

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=81642

I believe Gougeon Brothers (WEST System epoxy) also has a poured-in-place instruction. Doesn't make it any better if you ask me.

*Catalina's other horrible repair scheme that comes immediately to mind is their leaky window remedy. It involves cutting away a portion of the glazing vinyl and then slobbering it over with clear silicone. Not only is it a freakin' mess, it doesn't work.

[sailhog]

Sweet Jaysus... I've had this on my to do list for the past couple of haul outs and didn't move forward with it out of sheer laziness. Thanks, Neil... I dodged a bullet.

Not to hijack this thread, but is there a legitimate fix for the wobbly rudder post on C-30s?