Rebuild process

[seapadrik]

Hey,

I am looking for a big picture overview of the different milestones in a rebuild. I have decided to do this based on my boat taking on water a while back and seizing the engine.

Where I am:
1. Removed engine from boat with two buddies and lots of tips on this site.
2. Engine on a workbench in garage
3. I have Moyers Manual
4. Finally got the head off, all studs are removed from block

What I have researched:
1. I have been given number of reputable machine shop that does alot of marine engines in Seattle
2., countless hours reading this site.

What I have found:
1. valve step is snapped off ( its possible one of my wooden shims did this when removing the head ) ?
2. pistons and flywheel not moving

What I have done for pistons/flywheel
1. Lots of ATF fluid in the cylinders based on this site.
2. tapped pistons with block of wood, try turning the wheel with Moyer hand crank.
3. will try this till I get it moving

What should I do for the snapped valve stem ?

Assuming I get the pistons moving what should I do next?

1. should i take it to a machine shop and have them inspect valves, rings and pistons ? Is it easy enough that I do the inspection?

2. Once I do bring it to the machine shop, what services should i have done ? the Head to spec? Acid wash ? Cleaning ?

3. Since the head is off now should I just go ahead and replace all studs and nuts from Moyer catalog ?

4. Should I break this engine down any further ? I have the distributer, alternator, starter, carb, exhaust manifold, head all removed.

Any advice from would be greatly appreciated. I just want to have my ducks in a row process wise before I call that machine shop . I have a friend helping me so that helps.

thanks

[seapadrik]

I meant to attach this photo

[Concord]

I am working through similar issues with my A4 (See link below)

What I have found:
1. valve step is snapped off ( its possible one of my wooden shims did this when removing the head ) ? I don't think a wood shim would do that. I would guess it was broken. My engine looks like it overheated and cause it to seize. After several weeks of soaking the pistons I removed the oil pan and took out the crank. I was able to remove the pistons then. 1 and 4 tapped out pretty easy, 2 and 3 took some work.
2. pistons and flywheel not moving if the pistons stuck the flywheel will not move, I would give the ATF a little more time to work then drop the crank and see what is really stuck.

What I have done for pistons/flywheel
1. Lots of ATF fluid in the cylinders based on this site.
2. tapped pistons with block of wood, try turning the wheel with Moyer hand crank.
3. will try this till I get it moving

What should I do for the snapped valve stem ?
Until you get the crank turning or can turn the cam shaft it is hard to know if the valves and lifters are turning freely. If you can't get the valve stem out the top you may need to pull the cam shaft and drive it out down. In the mean time I would get a valve spring compressor. MMI unit works well.

Assuming I get the pistons moving what should I do next?
Wait until you get it moving

1. should i take it to a machine shop and have them inspect valves, rings and pistons ? Is it easy enough that I do the inspection?

2. Once I do bring it to the machine shop, what services should i have done ? the Head to spec? Acid wash ? Cleaning ?
Lots more disassembly before you think about that,

3. Since the head is off now should I just go ahead and replace all studs and nuts from Moyer catalog ?
I am curious about that myself, two head studs came out easy others have not budged on mine so I am using PB blaster and waiting for now.

4. Should I break this engine down any further ? I have the distributer, alternator, starter, carb, exhaust manifold, head all removed.
It all depends if you can get it turning, When I finally got my pistons out it was obvious that I would need at least 2 new pistons but I need to get the block cleaned up to see if I need to bore it out.

I am facing the same issues as you I am just a few weeks ahead of you in execution.

Good luck

http://www.moyermarine.com//forums/showthread.php?t=4263

[Al Schober]

With a basically unknown engine on the bench, I would definately plan on removing the pistons to a) hone the cylinder bores, b) clean the ring grooves and oil drain holes, and c) install new rings. Most A4s lug at relatively low rpm, hence operate at high combustion pressures, leading to gross ring wear. But, you'll probably find little bore wear and little to no ridge at the top of the cylinder. Rings are supposed to have about .010" gap - I've seen used rings with over .100" gap! Those rings were just going along for the ride.

Al

[seapadrik]

Thanks for the tips.

Here is an update. Last night after almost giving in, I decided to get a bigger screwdriver to try and move the flywheel. It finally moved a bit and the rest is history.

As of right now, the pistons are moving freely in the cylinders. I also noticed that all of the valve stems ( including the one that snapped off ) are raising and lowering when I rotate the fly wheel.

I am glad to see that is happening.

Now, what next ? Should I consider having the machine shop inspect the pistons/rings at this point? Do I dare attempt it myself ?

[Al Schober]

Whether you take it to a shop depends on a) your mechanical leaning, and b) what work needs to be done.
At this stage, I'd give the top of the block a good cleaning and inspect for cracks. You can do this visually or use a dye penetrant. A shop would use a magnaflux tool. If you find any cracks that go into the cylinders or valve ports, I'd condemn the block. Cracks that are just in the water jacket would have to be evaluated.
Once you decide to continue with this block, see how much ridge you have at the top of the cylinders. If substantial, you may have to have the cylinders bored and oversize pistons fitted. Definately a shop job! If just a minor ridge (or none), you can rent/borrow a ridge reamer and scrape it off yourself. I've seen folks remove the cylinder ridge using a half-round file, but that's because their reamer didn't fit! Once the ridge is gone, you can remove the pistons out the top and see how things look.
Send photos - a thousand words and all that...

Al

[lat 64]

Damage report

The Machine shop will be able to assess all the damage to the block.
I've heard there are good shops around Seattle. Those old wooden boat guys in Pt. Townsend might give some direction as to which is favorite for A-4s.

I'm all for doing yourself but if you are having them do a bit of the work, Perhaps let them dismantle it. A machine shop might be able to salvage a part whereas an amateur might ruin it(some history here ). Don't let them patronize you and blow off your questions. If you are curious and willing to learn, They should be friendly enough to chat and tell you about your engine.

I agree with concord, the valve may have already been broken.

I'll check in on this thread now and then. cheers,

Russ

[seapadrik]

Update

So I have decided to continue with the dismantle myself. I called a shop and he explained their services and prices. I got the idea they really don't want to dismantle or re-assemble anything. He did say that he would hot tank all my parts for me.

So the new plan is to continue with the disassemble. Taking off the oil pan, crankshaft, pistons, and basically separating it so I can bring in the block, head , and pistons for inspection.

I have the Moyer manual that discusses those options. Although the person above made it sound like If I were to got rid of any ridge in those cylinders I could remove the pistons from the top ? Could you explain further ? what attaches to the pistons to pull them up ? Is there something that you must loosen first ?

I also have 2 photos to submit. One is a rubber part that I found inside my valve opening, just laying there. What is it ? The 2nd is my valve that snapped off. I do not know whether this is an exhaust valve or a intake valve. But I can tell you that If you were to number 1-8, with 1 being the valve closest the the exhaust manifold exit/flange. Then it would be in position 1.

Thanks

[Marian Claire]

I believe the valves go E I I E E I I E , E= exhaust I = intake. So the broken one would be an exhaust valve. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[67c&ccorv]

The rubber boot looks like one of two things;

1.) an inlet valve guide seal (doubtful?);

2.) the rubber lining from a spark plug socket wrench that somehow dropped into your engine!

Holy cow - the things you find in an A-4

[lat 64]

I think the rubber thing is a spark-plug-wire boot. Most likely from the dist.-cap end of the wire.

I guess they don't make custom machine shops like they used to. Sorry to steer you wrong.
The pistons will come out the top of the block but only after the rods are released from the crankshaft. The connecting rods will slide up and out with the pistons.
You will get to this later. For now continue the back cover and pan removal and catalog EVERYTHING! Take lots of pictures. there are many parts that can be put back in wrong.
Another thing; Call more than one shop. It seems you should have a good mentor to guide you.
Go to a cafe in the industrial part of town(Bremerton maybe?)
Look for the guy over 60 that is wearing a clean gray work shirt with his name on a sewn-on patch. He'll have a paunch, but he could break your arm with those thick wrists. Ask him where to find a good engine machinist(not mechanic). Just laugh if he swears at you, He's testing you.

cheers,
Russ

[sastanley]

Russ,
You guys have a lot of time during the long winter to fine tune that dry humor up there in Alaska don't you?!?!?