No cooling water moving through engine

[RIDAVIDK]

Hi Everyone

I am completely new to the forum and am looking for some info. I am looking at a boat with an A4 in it that has been sitting for probably a couple of years. It was donated to a foundation and is for sale "as-is", so there is no info available from the previous owner. I am very interested in the boat and they seem agreeable to letting me check out anything I want on it. I should mention that the PO had made many improvements to the engine. It has the Indigo fresh water cooling added. The lower water pump looks newer, and has the plate with the thumbscrews as seen in some of the photos on this site, holding it on. According to the yard manager it has a stainless steel exhaust system.

The other day, along with the yard manager, we tried to start the engine, and within a few tries it fired up, and ran smoothly and then we shut it off before it really had a chance to warm up. It seemed to run fine. I then asked him, thanks to some threads I had seen here, if we could hook it up to some cooling water and run it for a while. He agreed, and we removed the raw water intake hose and placed it in a bucket of water in the cockpit. We started the engine again, and there was no water flow through the engine. We got a funnel, held the hose up as high as possible and filled it with water, and still nothing. We by-passed the raw water strainer and still nothing.

My question is this. I am very interested in the boat, but I don't want to pay too much if this is a serious, i.e. "expensive" fix. Are there other things I can check? Do you think this is a big problem? The yard manager seemed to think it was probably the impellers. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

David

[Mo]

Welcome David,

First, that might be a good boat especially when you see upgrades and attention to detail done by a previous owner.

Could be a few things cause that and I'll give you a ballpark on what it will cost you doing it yourself.

-pump needs to be primed....prime pump...$ 0.00
-impeller gone....less than $50
-blockage of water hose /elbow etc...time and maybe a clamp or two...$10?
-raw water pump failure ... rebuild or replace...less than $300

Just some advice re: boats David. You will need to consider the purchase, ongoing upkeep and repairs, storage and a place to keep it in the water as well. Also keep in mind that boats are called "she" for a reason. They need constant attention, especially to details regarding them, and don't like to be left alone for extended periods of time....true that. There will always be some thing nagging in the background that needs doing....My point is there is allot to owning a boat and it's a lifestyle decision to buy one. You will have to turn your hand to everything unless you have lots of cash to be paying others to do it for you.

I made that little lifestyle switch when I was 35 (I'm now 51)...best thing I ever did and should have done it sooner.

[RIDAVIDK]

Mo

Thanks for the quick reply, and welcome. This may be a stupid question, but how do you prime the pump? The other potential fixes don't seem like deal breakers, at worst case changing the pump? Would I be able to tell if the impellers are bad by removing the covers and visually inspecting them?

I am pretty handy, having been a professional woodworker for the last twenty something years. Engines are a new thing to me, but don't seem overwhelming, particularly with help like this forum available.

I have sailed small sailboats for a long time and have wanted to move up and try a larger boat for a while. I have been looking at them for about a year now, trying to find the best boat I can with a fairly small investment. I have researched all the associated costs and feel I have a good handle on them as well and still want to give it a go. I hope it all works out great, but I will only know once I take the plunge.

David

[LastLeg]

Wow, I find this post so interesting. I myself purchased a 32' Irwin from a foundation that received donated cars and boats. I paid 2500 bucks for it. I had no idea if the A-4 would crank but knowing the engine and having owned the same boat I was confident. My engine started right up in the boatyard after I purchased it but since then have had to overhaul it.

You may want to consider that will have to overhaul the engine eventually, this engine is one the easiest engines to work on. If cared for will never die. I would also focus on the structural integrity, chain plates are secure and have a strong foundation etc also rigging and sails.

I was lucky because of the rigging and inventory Sails, Halliards were abundant with my purchase about 5 years ago. thanks to Moyer Marine I still have the boat and enjoy it (when it is in the water). Looking back, the 2,500 was negligible, considering transportation and work, they should paid me to take the boat.

[Mo]

Mo

Thanks for the quick reply, and welcome. This may be a stupid question, but how do you prime the pump? The other potential fixes don't seem like deal breakers, at worst case changing the pump? Would I be able to tell if the impellers are bad by removing the covers and visually inspecting them?

I am pretty handy, having been a professional woodworker for the last twenty something years. Engines are a new thing to me, but don't seem overwhelming, particularly with help like this forum available.

I have sailed small sailboats for a long time and have wanted to move up and try a larger boat for a while. I have been looking at them for about a year now, trying to find the best boat I can with a fairly small investment. I have researched all the associated costs and feel I have a good handle on them as well and still want to give it a go. I hope it all works out great, but I will only know once I take the plunge.

David

My advice would be to order an impeller and gasket from Moyer. Also have a good look at the hoses attached to the pump and ensure they are indeed attached and clamped.

Next thing to consider is where the boat is. If in a cold winter climate area there could be a few surprises if it wasn't winterized properly...in such a case it will start fine until the water is supplied...there could be issues but judging from what you have described it looks as if the previous owner would have ensured it was done correctly.

If the yard people were showing the boat and starting it as they did with you, the impeller can very well be history. So, remove the cover off the impeller and see if it is all there. If not, be prepared to remove the hose at the end going into the engine, as pieces may have caught up there causing a restriction...so look at the impeller first...may have to systematically check every 90 degree turn in the plumbing to ensure not blockage

Once you have determined an intact impeller you will prime the pump. To prime the pump on the hard put a bucket of water in the boat down in a lazarette at or slightly higher than the pump itself...a little lower shouldn't matter but you don't want the pump to have to draw lower than it would if the pump was drawing sea water. Remove the hose from the intake valve (he may have a winterizing "T" installed in which case you just close the intake valve and open the valve to the hose for winterizing). Either way you either hold up the hose from the valve going to the pump a little higher than the pump. Pour some water in it until it is full and then stick the hose in the bucket. If the impeller is intact it "should" start to draw water as soon as the engine is started.

Hope that helps you out. I'm heading out sailing here pretty soon so perhaps a few of the guys can jump in and help you as the day progresses.

[RIDAVIDK]

Mo

Thanks again for the help. I believe I tried priming the hose with water bucket properly and nothing happened. I think the next step for me is to remove the covers on the pumps and check the impellers condition. I won't be able to get down there until tomorrow.

Thanks again for your help and enjoy your day out on the water.

David

[lakeeffect]

I too am having the same issue. Our Catalina 27 is slipped in salt water year round. I have a flush hose that I normally flush out the engine with after use. In our most recent trip down to the docks after about a year of being away due to illness, not even the flush hose will move water through. I am going to check the status of the impeller as described. Hopefully the same steps apply to my atomic 4's condition as well.

[msauntry]

David, sounds like you're a fine candidate for a boat. The A4 is really an easy thing to work on or to learn on. You've already got a handle on this problem... You've done the research, asked the right questions, and understand how to proceed. Next is getting the hands greasy (or rusty) and spinning some wrenches.

Any problems that arise can be sorted out on this forum by some amazingly nice people. It is a strange thing to find on the internet!

Ask away and keep us posted. Everyone here likes a success story of another resurrected Atomic 4! We've turned some horrible rust buckets into little gems.

Good luck,
Micah

[Easy Rider]

Hi David,
If the boat is equipped with a raw water strainer you might need to prime the strainer before attempting to start the beast. I know mine won't pump unless the strainer is full so at spring start-up I unscrew the lid on the strainer and pour in as much water as it will hold and then it will pump. Hope this helps.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[Mo]

I too am having the same issue. Our Catalina 27 is slipped in salt water year round. I have a flush hose that I normally flush out the engine with after use. In our most recent trip down to the docks after about a year of being away due to illness, not even the flush hose will move water through. I am going to check the status of the impeller as described. Hopefully the same steps apply to my atomic 4's condition as well.

HI,
Welcome. I think you will have more trouble than David getting water to circulate.
-get a diver in the water and have him clean the thru-hull for the raw water intake...undoubtedly it will be full of sea life after sitting a year.
-then take the line from the strainer (if you have one) and /or the raw water pump off and clean the lines out. A bucket of muriatic acid will do the trick...lay them in that for 5 minutes then flush.
-remove impeller cover and see if impeller is still intact...replace with a new one anyway.
-if the impeller had pieces missing you may still have a blockage... have to systematically search every elbow and joint downstream of the pump to engine to find the blocking part if she doesn't pump good.
-do a muriatic acid flush once the engine is running and pumping water.

Hope that helps you.

[RIDAVIDK]

Todays attempts

Hello all

I went back to the boat today. I removed the back plates from both the water pumps and both impellers looked fine, no broken pieces. I moved the pulley and could see the impeller in the raw water pump move. I put the covers back on started the engine, which started easily, and tried to prime the pump by filling the raw water inlet hose with water, and holding the end about 4 feet above the engine. A tiny bit of water went in and then no more. I hope I'm not just missing something stupid, like a valve that was closed and should be opened. If anyone has any ideas about what else to try, or how to proceed, I would appreciate it.

Thanks

David

[roadnsky]

Any chance there's a T-Valve inline? (See pic)
Trace the intake water hose all the way to the pump.
Could be hiding...
A lot of guys have them to draw in antifreeze or vinegar or acid.
It's a likely add-on based on the PO's other engine improvements.


EDIT: Hmm, I just read your OP and realized you have FWC which makes it unlikely you'd have the T-valve.
Take a look anyway, just in case. (Just grasping at straws now)

[Al Schober]

David,
To check the pump, just disconnect it from the system. Suction from a bucket, discharge back to the bucket. You'll know in 30 sec whether the pump works. If it doesn't, new pump. If it does work, look for a blockage.
You say you have FW cooling with a heat exchanger, so there's not that much in the SW loop. The inlet, the strainer, the pump, the heat exchanger, then out. The SW loop has nothing to do with flow through the engine - that's a separate circuit. Get the SW circuit working, then worry about the coolant circuit through the engine.
BTW, neither one should be a show-stopper for the boat. These are just normal 'things that happen'. Not like there was a hole in the side of the block where you could see half a connecting rod...

[ndutton]

I put the covers back on started the engine, which started easily, and tried to prime the pump by filling the raw water inlet hose with water, and holding the end about 4 feet above the engine. A tiny bit of water went in and then no more.

I think that intake hose might be clogged. You might try taking it off and blowing through it. If I've guessed right hose is cheap in terms of boat expenses.

[RIDAVIDK]

Todays attempts

I went to the boat today and removed the hose from the outlet side of the pump. I turned the engine over, and water gushed out. I then removed the house going from the outlet of the pump to the heat exchanger, and it was clear. I am thinking now that the heat exchanger is clogged up, and causing the problem. Is there a way to test this, and if it is clogged, can it be cleaned out.

There also seems to be a mixing valve of some sort attached to the heat exchanger. Any idea of it's purpose?

Thanks for any input.

David

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