Overheating, cooling or exhaust system issue?

[krazzz]

Just when I had my A4 running like a top she has blessed me with another mystery problem. Here is the rundown:

Last week I was heading out for a quick little ride. On my way out of the harbor my boat started acting strange and engine speed started fluctuating (around 1500-1700rpm.) All of a sudden I heard some "popping" sounds possibly a backfire coming from the carb and then she stopped. Since I was in the channel I immediately unfurled the genoa and sailed away. Didn't have a chance to look at anything at that time. One our way back in she started right up with no issues. The next day she began to run hot. I noticed a significant amount of steam and little water coming out. She has always steamed a tiny bit once she is warmed up but this was a lot. Almost like I was spraying for mosquitoes. The temp gauge said 240 but I don't really trust it. It didn't seem that hot, I was able to put my hand on the head while running.

Boat Specs:
1971 Ericson E32
Atomic 4 (new style, believe to be original)
Raw water cooled (fresh water lake)
No thermostat and my bypass valve was closed.
Impeller only has about 30 hours on it and it was pumping what I believe to be a normal amount (10-15 ft spurt every couple seconds) up until a week ago.
Standpipe exhaust

Here is what I have done so far and what I have observed.

1. I did a vinegar flush to make sure my passages were clean. I have a T installed between my sea cock and pump. I closed the sea cock and put a hose on the T and into a gallon of vinegar. With the engine running it sucked the first gallon down no problem. When I switched bottles all of a sudden fluid started coming out that hose. It was a nice brown mix (must be the vinegar doing its job already) and some bubbles. Actually a lot of bubbles. Do you think these are exhaust or steam? I turned off the motor and let it sit for a bit. Then I started it back up and it sucked up the second gallon of vinegar. I let it sit overnight.

2. Day two, I go back and pull the hose off the manifold (to exhaust fitting) and added a length of hose going into a bucket. Started the engine and watched the flow. It seemed to be a nice steady stream. I got about 2-2.5 gallons of water at about 1,000 rpm in a minute to a minute and a half. It is the original style pump (202?) and I don't know the flow that that it is supposed to be but I imagine that I am close to spec. The water was slightly brown by I expected that.

3. Then I take the hose that leads to the water intake on the exhaust and blew through it. Didn't feel like any restriction at all. Hooked the hose back up.

4. Ran the engine again. Very little water flow and a lot of steam. Engine is running at 220-240 (again I don't trust this number though, needle is jumping around and head wasn't crazy hot.) This time I notice a trickle of water coming off the standpipe. My standpipe is wrapped in cloth so I don't know where the water is coming from. It could be the elbow at the bottom where it is dripping from or anywhere higher up?

Where do I go from here? I am going to check the oil and also compression. Help please!!!! I just want to go sailing.

[Dave Neptune]

krazzz, I'd advise to things. First I would check the gage so you can rely on it's readings.

As far as your heating I'd start at the end first then the beginning nothing in
between yet!
FIRST look under the exit fitting of the exhaust manifold by REMOVING the fitting and taking a good look. This is an area that tends to collect KRAP and block water flow. If this is clear go to #2.
#2 close the water intake valve and remove the hose from the pump. Now open the valve to be sure of a good supply of water!!!!!!!
#3 if a good supply is confirmed check the pump impeller and count the veins to be sure one has not broken off and is plugging the pump or something "up stream".
Once these are confirmed good a logical path of checks can be worked out.

Dave Neptune

[Al Schober]

Krazz,
Sounds like you have a couple of things going on. But some questions..
Can you post a photo of your exhaust? If it's indeed a 'standpipe', there's no reason for it to be wrapped. All that needs wrapping is the hot pipe between the engine and the standpipe. But the 10-15 ft spurts every few seconds sounds more like a water lift. A standpipe doesn't spurt. Where's the leak coming from?
Temp gauge says 240, head is crazy hot/not hot. IMHO, the temp sender over the flywheel is as likely to measure head temperature as water temperature. Do you have one of those infrared handheld things?
Good flow, poor flow.. I'd recommend disconnecting some more hoses and doing some more blowing (a good test). I'd first be looking for a blockage at the coolant outlet from the manifold (particularly after loosening things up with the vinegar).
Don't let it overheat - not good.

[krazzz]

krazzz, I'd advise to things. First I would check the gage so you can rely on it's readings.

As far as your heating I'd start at the end first then the beginning nothing in
between yet!
FIRST look under the exit fitting of the exhaust manifold by REMOVING the fitting and taking a good look. This is an area that tends to collect KRAP and block water flow. If this is clear go to #2.

I did pull the hose off and put a new hose on and ran it to a bucket. I had solid flow there so it seemed to be ok. I can pull the fitting though and double check.

#2 close the water intake valve and remove the hose from the pump. Now open the valve to be sure of a good supply of water!!!!!!!

I did confirm that just before I did the vinegar flush. Lots a of flow.

#3 if a good supply is confirmed check the pump impeller and count the veins to be sure one has not broken off and is plugging the pump or something "up stream".

I have been putting that off. It is one of those stand on your head procedures and the impeller only has about 30 hours on it. But I suppose I need to rule that out. I can't wait until the kids are old enough to assign tasks like this.
Once these are confirmed good a logical path of checks can be worked out.

Dave Neptune [/QUOTE]

[krazzz]

Krazz,
Sounds like you have a couple of things going on. But some questions..
Can you post a photo of your exhaust? If it's indeed a 'standpipe', there's no reason for it to be wrapped. All that needs wrapping is the hot pipe between the engine and the standpipe. But the 10-15 ft spurts every few seconds sounds more like a water lift. A standpipe doesn't spurt. Where's the leak coming from?
Temp gauge says 240, head is crazy hot/not hot. IMHO, the temp sender over the flywheel is as likely to measure head temperature as water temperature. Do you have one of those infrared handheld things?
Good flow, poor flow.. I'd recommend disconnecting some more hoses and doing some more blowing (a good test). I'd first be looking for a blockage at the coolant outlet from the manifold (particularly after loosening things up with the vinegar).
Don't let it overheat - not good.

Here is a picture [IMG]

[/IMG]

The coolant outlet from the manifold seemed to have good flow. That is where I hooked the hose to test and filled a bucked.

[krazzz]

My exhaust is of similar design to this one sold by Moyer.

http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=EXHT_01.0_527

[David Pugh]

Exaust design

Hi Krazzz; I'm somewhat new at this but I did install a new exaust on my engine last year. It looks to me that the elbow exiting your head is rusted through and leaking.

I think the location where the engine cooling water is entering the exaust is wrong. it should be on the down side of the riser so water cannot go backwards into the exaust manifold. This could also be the source of steam being generated as water maixes with the hot exaust gases. The mere fact that water will always be sitting there may be why the elbow is rusted out.

Like I said I am new at this so I could be wrong.

I'll keep watching and hope to learn something while you fix this issue.

Good sailing, Dave.

[krazzz]

Hi Krazzz; I'm somewhat new at this but I did install a new exaust on my engine last year. It looks to me that the elbow exiting your head is rusted through and leaking.

I think the location where the engine cooling water is entering the exaust is wrong. it should be on the down side of the riser so water cannot go backwards into the exaust manifold. This could also be the source of steam being generated as water maixes with the hot exaust gases. The mere fact that water will always be sitting there may be why the elbow is rusted out.

Like I said I am new at this so I could be wrong.

I'll keep watching and hope to learn something while you fix this issue.

Good sailing, Dave.

Dave, I have no idea either however I am confident this is the factory design as I have seen pictures of other boats just like mine with identical setups. I guess I can't argue or complain of the design if it has lasted 44 years.

[Al Schober]

Krazz,
I looked at the photo and I still don't understand that exhaust. With a riser/mixing can, exhaust from engine should come in the bottom, the water into the top, and the mix out the lower side.
With yours, I see a pipe at the bottom (exhaust in?), then what looks like a water line, then a rubber hose connection above that (mixed exhaust and water out?), then more wrapped stuff above that??
Even when a mixing can is designed properly, they are subject to corrosion and failure - been there, done that! They have an internal baffle which can fail, allowing coolant water to go right back into the exhaust pipe from the engine. Needless to say, this is not good. Testing a mixing can isn't hard, but requires disconnecting the engine exhaust or removing the manifold.
You say it's lasted 44 years - perhaps it has actually lasted 43 1/2 years (which is very commendable). If so, I'd really like to know what's under all that wrap. My boat is 42 years young, but on it's third exhaust mixer (the Moyer can wasn't available during my last exhaust party).
As to the overheat, I'm losing track of whether it is or isn't? In my experience, good coolant flow and overheating are not compatible.

[BadaBing]

Could be an early version of a standpipe. As already stated modern standpipe have the exhaust input attachment at the bottom and water input at the top with the mixed water and exhausted exit on the side. The exhaust gasses, after entering the stand pipe actually travel up inside an internal pipe to about 1" shy of the top where they exit the center pipe and come down around the outside of that center pipe down the the exit port. On a modern standpipe the exhaust gasses mix with water "on the way down" to the exit port. This keeps everything nice and cool and removes any need for heat tape on the standpipe.
However, your assembly brings the water in below the exit port. I assume the internal raiser still rises to almost the top of the assembly. I theory this would cause the hot exhaust gasses to mix With the water just as water and gasses converge at the exit port. Hence the need to wrap exhaust tape around the standpipe because the gasses in the upper section have not yet been cooled.
I would bet that your old style "standpipe" has developed a couple problems.
First, holes in the center exhaust pipe, this has been allowing water to enter the hot section and produce stern.
Second, I would bet that the holes have grown to the point of now flooding the lower section of the hot section, almost turning it into a makeshift waterlogged muffler, as this problem has grown by the engine nowxattempting to blow hot water and stern up the center pipe it is probably causing excessive exhaust back pressure , backfired shut down, as well as the fluctuation of Rome just prior to shut down.
Third.
2.5 GPM is very low at 1000 rpm should be 4-5 which is compounding the problem.

To test this theory is troublesome. But if I am correct, and you continue running her, you run a big risk of giving her a huge gulp of water into one or more cylinders while running under power and doing massive damage to her. Water does not compress, something or somethings will have to give. In my case it was the head that cracked as the head gasket blow out could not relive pressure fast enough. Could have been worse.

The only way to test this is to disconnect the hot section from the bottom of the standalone and pump about 4-6 gal or minute into the water fitting on the standpoint. If I am correct water will fall out the fitting where the hot pipe was connected. If the stand pipe is still good NO water will come out the bottom, it will all flow out the exit port on the side.
You said you have a water leak up under the exhaust wrap tape. I'll bet if you unwrap it you will find more evidence that the assembly has gone the second mile, several times over.
One more if bought. On Standpipe setup. Everything from the exhaust port on the standalone to the through hull fitting should run down hill.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Boat Specs:
1971 Ericson E32
Atomic 4 (new style, believe to be original)
Raw water cooled (fresh water lake)
No thermostat and my bypass valve was closed.
g.

Here's an easy check that will give us more information:
Try opening the bypass valve while you are testing and see if the flow of water improves. If the water flow improves it points to a blockage in the engine.

TRUE GRIT

PS:Your exhaust system is in definitely need of service. Carbon monoxide is a colorless odorless gas.............
Edit: Have you ever had the side plate off?

[krazzz]

Here's an easy check that will give us more information:
Try opening the bypass valve while you are testing and see if the flow of water improves. If the water flow improves it points to a blockage in the engine.

TRUE GRIT

PS:Your exhaust system is in definitely need of service. Carbon monoxide is a colorless odorless gas.............
Edit: Have you ever had the side plate off?

I did try opening and closing the bypass and didn't notice a change. I hope to get to the boat tomorrow and get some actual measured and timed flow rates. I also have an IR Thermometer and an cooking probe style thermometer so I can get some accurate readings. Will report back my findings.

No, I have never had the side plate off. I don't see any way that I can get to it. I have almost no access to the left side of my motor. I certainly can't see anything but I'm not even sure I can reach it. I think they built the boat around the motor. At lease it feels that way.

[JOHN COOKSON]

The next day she began to run hot. I noticed a significant amount of steam and little water coming out. She has always steamed a tiny bit once she is warmed up but this was a lot. Almost like I was spraying for mosquitoes. The temp gauge said 240 but I don't really trust it. It didn't seem that hot, I was able to put my hand on the head while running.


2. Day two, I go back and pull the hose off the manifold (to exhaust fitting) and added a length of hose going into a bucket. Started the engine and watched the flow. It seemed to be a nice steady stream. I got about 2-2.5 gallons of water at about 1,000 rpm in a minute to a minute and a half. It is the original style pump (202?) and I don't know the flow that that it is supposed to be but I imagine that I am close to spec. The water was slightly brown by I expected that.
4. Ran the engine again. Very little water flow and a lot of steam. Engine is running at 220-240 (again I don't trust this number though, needle is jumping around and head wasn't crazy hot.) THelp please!!!! I just want to go sailing.

There are contradictions that need to be sorted out. Also noted at the end of post #9

TRUE GRIT