Leaking Windows In FG Boats

[JOHN COOKSON]

Several members have sent me PMs asking about this so I'll post it in the open forum.

If the windows on your boat are composed of inner and outer metal frames that are drawn together by screws they will leak if there are voids between the inner FG liner and the FG outer deck. This can be demonstrated as follows: Find an area where there is a ~1" or greater void and pinch the inner liner and hull together. You will see that they flex. When you try to bed against something that flexes like this the seal will never hold. I promise.

Naturally, the solution is to fill the voids. I had mine done by a when-the-surf-is-not-up-I'll-work-on-your-boat-professional as part of a larger project. He used some sort of West System epoxy to fill the voids. I don't know what he used exactly - I'm not that familiar with the West System line of materials. It may be necessary to wedge between the liner and the hull to achieve parallel surfaces before filling the voids.

TRUE GRIT

[Dave Neptune]

John, can you remove those windows again? I have the same windows and the "outside surface is sealed. I still get leaks however they are from other sources. I fixed the port side leaks by removing the worthless teak handrail that dripped everywhere it connecte3d and the water ran down the inner liner and out through the windows if that was a direct passage or into the interior lights fastened to the liner. The rest runs to the edges of the liner and down the hull into the bilge.

Or my windows leak but it is not the window that is leaking.

Dave Neptune

[Dave Neptune]

John, can you remove those windows again? I have the same windows and the "outside" surface is sealed. I still get leaks however they are from other sources. I fixed the port side leaks by removing the worthless teak handrail that dripped everywhere it connecte3d and the water ran down the inner liner and out through the windows if that was a direct passage or into the interior lights fastened to the liner. The rest runs to the edges of the liner and down the hull into the bilge.

Or my windows leak but it is not the window that is leaking.

Dave Neptune

[JOHN COOKSON]

Dave N.
You can remove the windows but there is a slight trick to it.
Take the screws out and remove the inner frame. Break the seal on the outer frame by going around the frame with a thin putty knife or a butter knife. It helps to have someone inside the boat pushing out on the window while you do this. Start at a corner, across the top then down both sides. This will leave only the bottom sealed. At this point you can grab the frame at the top and pull it free. Do not drop it in the water. Do not pry, twist or torque against the soft aluminum outer frame or you will put a nasty little ding in it. Sort of cut it loose by going around it instead.

TRUE GRIT

[Dave Neptune]

John, I was referring to the windows of yours that are bonded.

Once I sealed my "outers" I began plugging other leaks into the headliner.

Sorry for the confusion.

Dave Neptune

[ndutton]

Actually, the windows John describes have four joints that can leak:

1. the flange to cabinsides with the difficulties he described,
2. between the vinyl glazing seal and the aluminum frame channel
3. the same vinyl seal but between the vinyl and the glazing
4. the butt joint between the aluminum frame halves

One other aggravating factor is cabinsides curvature. Most if not all aluminum frame windows were glazed with tempered glass. This glass does not bend very well so trying to seal a flat window on a curved surface compresses the middle more than the ends. We Catalina 30 guys know it all too well. A solution is to reglaze with Plexiglass™ that conforms to the curvature nicely.

[Easy Rider]

John,
Thanks for the PM. Since this thread is running I'll respond here. My efforts to seal a nagging leak I have, (or hopefully, had) have given me no end of frustration. I don't know how many times I've removed the whole window, cleaned, replaced some parts and re-installed only to find the leak appearing again. This spring I decided to take a different approach and I've re-bedded a suspect bit of hardware located up hill of the window which I believe (hope) is the source of the leak and was letting the water run between the inner FG liner and the outer FG topsides. I came to this conclusion because when I have a tarp over the boom during the winter months the window doesn't appear to be leaking yet the windows are not fully protected. Your method would work in that the window wouldn't leak anymore but in my situation if the source is from another area and showing up as a leak at the window the problem hasn't really gone away but would only be re-directed. I would feel better knowing the leak is stopped at the source. I'll know once the rainy season starts. In the meantime I'm going sailing.

Chuck

[JOHN COOKSON]

Actually, the windows John describes have four joints that can leak:

1. the flange to cabinsides with the difficulties he described,
2. between the vinyl glazing seal and the aluminum frame channel
3. the same vinyl seal but between the vinyl and the glazing
4. the butt joint between the aluminum frame halves

One other aggravating factor is cabinsides curvature. Most if not all aluminum frame windows were glazed with tempered glass. This glass does not bend very well so trying to seal a flat window on a curved surface compresses the middle more than the ends. We Catalina 30 guys know it all too well. A solution is to reglaze with Plexiglass™ that conforms to the curvature nicely.

The pro that fixed my windows sealed all the areas mentioned in the list. Now I have zero window leaks. Also my windows are glazed with tinted plexiglass and they do "conform to the curvature nicely."
If you are finding water in a seat locker on your FG boat check your windows for leaks. Water can run down inside the liner into the locker if a window is leaking.
One thing for sure (usually) on a FG boat with an inner liner is that where you see the water is not where the leak is.

TRUE GRIT

[ndutton]

Here's a thought John and it's pure speculation. Accepting that deck leaks in liner style construction have a way of migrating until they find a way out in a visible leak, consider that repairing the voids between liner and deck at the window location seals off the way out. The water will then have to find another exit or it will pool in the now sealed off void, unknown to the owner.

I'm not suggesting repairing the voids at the window locations is a bad idea, water could be getting IN there as well as out and your comment that it's difficult if not impossible to get the window flange to seal well against a flexible surface is noted. There may be unknown and unintended consequences though.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Here's a thought John and it's pure speculation. Accepting that deck leaks in liner style construction have a way of migrating until they find a way out in a visible leak, consider that repairing the voids between liner and deck at the window location seals off the way out. The water will then have to find another exit or it will pool in the now sealed off void, unknown to the owner.
There may be unknown and [B]unintended[/B] consequences though.

It's not speculation. It's the truth. Especially the last sentence.
There is a saying in sailing "a dry boat is a happy boat" meaning if the living area gets wet you and the crew will not be happy.
To change this slightly if you want to keep your boat happy keep it dry. If you have a FG boat with an inner liner many times the source of the leak is above where you see the water.

TRUE GRIT

[The Garbone]

When I did the rebed of all my windows they still leaked inside until I rebed both bomar hatches in the overhead. Window leaks stopped.

[sastanley]

Actually, the windows John describes have four joints that can leak:

1. the flange to cabinsides with the difficulties he described,
2. between the vinyl glazing seal and the aluminum frame channel
3. the same vinyl seal but between the vinyl and the glazing
4. the butt joint between the aluminum frame halves

One other aggravating factor is cabinsides curvature. Most if not all aluminum frame windows were glazed with tempered glass. This glass does not bend very well so trying to seal a flat window on a curved surface compresses the middle more than the ends. We Catalina 30 guys know it all too well. A solution is to reglaze with Plexiglass™ that conforms to the curvature nicely.

Here is another Catalina 30 guy right in the middle of this project. I have all the pieces including new acrylic windows I cut using the old glass as a template. Now I just have to re-assemble (oh, and sand and prime and fill nicks and dents and paint the deck..blah blah blah blah!!)

Here's a thought John and it's pure speculation. Accepting that deck leaks in liner style construction have a way of migrating until they find a way out in a visible leak, consider that repairing the voids between liner and deck at the window location seals off the way out. The water will then have to find another exit or it will pool in the now sealed off void, unknown to the owner.

I'm not suggesting repairing the voids at the window locations is a bad idea, water could be getting IN there as well as out and your comment that it's difficult if not impossible to get the window flange to seal well against a flexible surface is noted. There may be unknown and unintended consequences though.

I also find this to be true. I am slowly re-bedding every piece of hardware in the deck and removing what I do not need. I used to get water dripping thru the cabin liner from holes left by the P.O. As I seal those off, when it rains I now have a trail of nice brown water (plywood core) in the extreme aft of the quarterberth where the cabin liner ends, and there is a small exit hole that still exists from the P.O.'s LORAN cable. For now, I am leaving this exposed to allow the water to get out of the liner..when it stops dripping, I'll maybe have gotten all of the actual leaks!

It never ends!