Tartan 30 Exhaust/Water in the Oil

[gdasw]

I have a Tartan 30 with an Atomic 4 which is new to me this year and I have been learning about the workings of the A4. This forum certainly has been helpful. One of the issues that I have had is water intrusion into the engine.

After a cruise this summer I found water in the oil (milky) but none in the cylinders. I have done the oil changes and I am now going through the diagnostics to try and find the cause. So far I have tested the compression – seems fine 1 and 2 are 90 and 3 and 4 are 100, pressure tested the manifold and pressure tested the block. All seem ok. The engine starts easily and runs well.

I am a bit suspicious of my exhaust system and would appreciate any comments. The engine in the T30 is mounted mid-ships and the exhaust goes out at the forward (flywheel) end. The cooling water goes through the manifold, out the aft end, through a loop up into a bulkhead ahead of the engine – there is a siphon break at the top of the loop - and back down into the hot section of the exhaust. It mixes with the exhaust into a water lift muffler, which goes up the bulkhead through a loop and the out the port side. I don’t believe this is the original exhaust in the boat.

One part of the exhaust system I question is where the cooling water enters the hot section of the exhaust. It is not very far below the lower part of the exhaust port – only 1 or 2 inches (see picture 1) and seems like it could get into the manifold. I believe the recommendation is at least 4 inches. The other question I have is the height of the cooling water loop and the loop after the water lift muffler. These are both well above the waterline, approximately 40 inches. Would either of these areas of the exhaust system cause water to back up into the manifold?

This past weekend I took the hot part of the exhaust apart and could see a bit of water near the forward end of the manifold. I have extended the hot exhaust pipe lower and moved the water mixing pipe lower (see picture 2).

Any comments on the exhaust and/or other areas to check for water intrusion would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Geoff

[Don Moyer]

Geoff,

I think you're correct to suspect the location of the water entry fitting in your exhaust system. It looks to me as though, even after your modification, there could still be a tendency for the engine cooling to splash upstream a bit and get into your exhaust manifold. Hopefully other Tartan owners will weigh in, but I don't believe the factory solution was to introduce engine cooling water at that location.

Don

[gdasw]

Thanks for the response Don. I am going to try and get the water entry point lower but there are some clearance issues and I need to get a rubber pipe to go to the water lift muffler without a sharp bend in it.

Can you comment on the height of loop for the cooling water and the exhaust exit from the water lift muffler? It seems that they are higher than they need to be - about 40" above the waterline. In particular, I am wondering if the height of the exhaust hose coming out of the water lift is causing additional back pressure on the exhaust, since the water must be pushed up higher, and also filling up the water lift muffler after the engine is shutdown and the water drops back down to into the muffler.

Thanks again,
Geoff

[Don Moyer]

Geoff,

I don't believe the exhaust system downstream from the water lift muffler is any part of your problem. Forty inches doesn't seem too high for an exhaust line downstream of the water lift muffler, and is probably close to the factory configuration. While the engine is running at any normal cruising power setting, there is very little weight of water within the pipe.

Don

[swallace11]

Al Shober on the Tartan website indicated recently that he plans to skip the water lift muffler and route an insulated exhaust pipe and separate water hose to the top of the anti-siphon loop located infront of the engine(midship on the T30) and join them there. My original T30 muffler appears to be in good shape but when replacement is necessary, this sound like a good idea: minimal chance of back siphoning into exhaust and cylinders, probably less back pressure. Maybe a little more noise, but minimal per pervious post here where muffler was eliminated on a T30. Can anyone see any downsides?

[Redboat]

Tartan 30 Exhaust

Geoff,
I have no idea why you have water in the oil. However I am concerned about your exhaust system as it appears in your photo. It appears in your photo that water is introduced just forward of the exhaust manifold and then you route the black flex hose up to the location where the original copper standpipe type muffler that was originally installed adjacent to the mast and about a foot above the top of the engine in the Tartan 30. If I am correct in my observation you would have water that will run back into the manifold when the engine is cranked or when the engine is shut down.

When my copper standpipe muffler went bad from years of saltwater use I removed it and installed a fiberglass water lift muffler immediately forward of the flywheel and adjacent to the mast. the muffler is mounted to an angle bracket I made from plywood and mounted to the bulkhead dividing the head compartment and the engine compartment. (Refer to the attached photo).
I then fabricated a new hot exhaust section that runs forward and angles toward the mast and sink compartment in the head. Once past the main cabin bulkhead forward of the engine I elbow the hot exhaust up to a point about a foot above the manifold.I then install two elbows to create a loop about a foot above the water line. The hot section of pipe is now pointed straight down at which point I install various "t"'s, nipples and a 45 degree elbow and another nipple where the cooling water from the engine is introduced into this assembly and the 1"-1/4 exhaust hose is connected. The cold exhaust hose is attached to a nipple off of the elbow and routed to port and looped into the bottom side of the warterlift muffler. The exhaust and water mixture exists the top of the muffler in the black hose out of the top of the muffler and up into the vent shaft in the head compartment adjacent to the mast. At a level of about 6" above the level of the shelf for the sink in the head. Sodered 2 copper elbows together and this created another loop above the waterline. The attached another 3' section of exhaust hose that runs from the copper elbow to the though hull on the side of the hull. All of the hot exhaust system fitting are 1'-1/4" galvanized pipe fittings that are available from any hardware store. I completed this installation about 7 years ago and have not had a single problem since and have had no water problems in the engine and it is much quieter than the original standpipe muffler. The only water problem I have had was a rusted through manifold. Next time I am at the boat I will try to get better photos of my installation and post them on this blog.


Larry
Tartan 30, #307
San Diego

[gdasw]

I like the sound of going without the waterlift. I did see the previous post by a T30 owner who had gone this route and it seems like a simple approach with almost no chance of water coming back in. I may consider it.

Geoff
T30 #357

[jacques debauche]

Tartan 30 exhaust

Looking at the various threads on Tartan 30 exhaust problems, I see one recurring theme. Later Tartan 30s have the cooling water injected just after the manifold, then have a conventional water-lift mufflers. These boats have problems with water entering the engine under certain conditions . Early Tartan 30s have a coaxial tube device (we'll call it a standpipe) which allows the cooling water to be injected after the hot exhaust has been brought above sea level. This insures 100% that cooling water can never enter the engine (barring failure of the standpipe). These boats don't have problems with water entering the engine. Our later Tartan 30 (#571) had the water-lift muffler arrangement, and suffered from water in the cylinders until I tore out the old system and replaced it with a stainless steel replica of the original copper standpipe. Problems gone. The standpipe was a prototype made by Don Moyer, and I'm sure that he would welcome hearing from Tartan 30 owners who would like to make a similar installation.

[Qben]

I had a similar installation to yours on my Tartan 30 (#518) when I bought it 6 months ago. You can see my progression through this process on the thread titled "A developing story" in the general interest section. I have now had it setup without the muffler or anti-siphon loop and in regular use for a little over a month with no problems except working through an appropriate heat shielding configuration, which I believe to now be resolved. The exhaust runs almost horizontal from the manifold, toward the mast, under the bulkhead, and straight up way higher than it needs to be (about 46" from the bottom of the bulkhead). From there it turns down 180 degrees and has the water injected about 6-8 inches from the top of the loop, still way, way above the heeled waterline so no need for anti-siphon. I really don't think it is any louder at all, it just has that distinctive "pop, pop" sound that an exhaust makes. It's actually kind of cool.

I used black iron at 1 1/4 inch for most of it, but went to 1 1/2 at the 180 degree turn at the top to help get the exhaust through the tight turn. I was a little bit concerned about having enough clearance for an appropriate amount of heat shielding if I used 1 1/2 inch pipe for all of it, but it turns out that I could have done that and been ok I think. I now have zero chance of water intrusion from the exhaust unless there were an internal failure of the manifold. There is no risk of overcranking, because it is a straight shot out of the boat from the injection point and all downhill. I'll work on getting some pictures posted today or tomorrow.

Even if your engine is running ok at this point, I would recommend checking the valve springs at some point. I had 4 broken ones from chronic exposure to water/steam. Even if it is not getting in the cylinders, the injection point is so close to the manifold that it seems unavoidable to have steam rising and condensing in the manifold around the valves and springs every time the engine is shut off and exhaust pressure goes away.

Qben

[gdasw]

Qben, are you routing your hot section up the bulk head and down and then adding in the cooling water and out the side without any kind of muffler. I have heard of this a couple of times before. It sounds straightforward. How did you manage insulating the hot section of the pipe and also the angle of the pipe up the bulkhead? Do you have any pictures you can post?

[Qben]

Yes, it is just as you describe. I have a straight (4 inch I think) piece of pipe out of the flange to a 45, then about an 8 inch piece which goes under the bulkhead and to a 90. From the 90 I have a vertical 44 inch piece going up the left side of the blower vent chase in the head. That goes to two street Ells making a 180 degree turn down. From there I have a 6 inch nipple to a coupling which has a 3/8 NPT nipple tapped into the side of it. There is a 90 degree Ell on this and another short nipple where the hose directly from the manifold attaches. On the bottom of the coupling where the water comes in is another 1 1/4 inch pipe nipple which my flexible exhaust attaches to and that drops vertically until it gets under the sink and takes a gradual slope out the side.

I insulated it with 1200 degree wrap overlapped 50%, then went over that with 750 degree wrap, overlapped 50% and then I put 3 inch aluminum flashing over all of the hot parts. This leaves about 1/4 inch air space between the outside of the wrap and the flashing. I got all the parts at the local hardware store except the exhaust wrap.

Here are some pictures of it (not the finished product as far as the heat shielding goes, but you get the layout of the pipe anyway).


Believe it or not, the blower vent actually fits back behind the right side of the exhaust inside the chase.

I've got more pictures. They are just on a different computer. I can get to them tomorrow.

Qben