Dueling batteries

[joe_db]

I have done pretty well with most of that technology for WAY less than $4,000
ACR - works great, I think maybe $140 off FleaBay.
Manually adjustable regulator - works great, it was a free extra in a Balmar shipment.
Smart Regulator - may get one, doing OK with the manual one changing between winter and summer settings by hand so far.
Battery Monitor - I like mine. About $60 total in Fleabay parts + $16 more for a Hall effect alternator output meter I just got off Amazon.
Balmar - I passed on the $$$ brand, got a 120 amp 10Si marine unit off Fleabay for about $80, and rewired it for positive field external regulation for free.
Serpentine belt - not sure how I could use that if I tried?
Hall Effect meter on Amazon is $16 and goes around the wire:

]
Fleabay meters:

Only because the internet 'experts' want you to think it is.
Examples:
Do you need an Automatic Charging Relay (ACR)? No.
Do you need a manually adjustable regulator? No.
Do you need a Smart Regulator with three stage charging profile? No.
Do you need a battery monitor? No.
Do you need a Balmar hairpin wound alternator? No.
Do you need a serpentine belt kit? No.
Yet these internet gurus keep saying you do. I just listed maybe $4,000.00 worth of gear (uninstalled prices) that you can have if you want but none of it is a necessity for a functioning system.

[ndutton]

ACR @ $140 as reported
Smart regulator @ $400
Brand name monitor @ $265
Balmar hairpin wound alternator @ $1900
Marine serpentine belt kit @ $545
As listed - $3250 and not one bit of it needed for a functioning and reliable system.

Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't have all the bells and whistles if you want. Ronnie confessed his electrical experience was limited and mentioned how complicated on board DC systems seem to be based on his reading. All I did was present the other side of the subject counter to the internet expert recommendations. I can get two new sails for under $3250 or have a fancy charging system to replace my basic system that already charges my batteries just fine.

Complications beyond a basic automotive battery and charging system that ARE necessary:

• More than one battery
• Ignition protected battery switch
• Ignition protection for the alternator

. . . . and that's about it. It does not have to be complicated to work but it certainly can be if you want.

P.S.
I didn't make up the expert list. It was actually recommended on another forum by a very popular professional marine electrician including the serpentine belt kit. Why not present the other, simpler side also? I think we all know why not.

P.P.S.
The comment I've often made that drives the ACR camp apoplectic is I've never understood what is so difficult about turning a battery switch. In fact, there's a bit of hypocrisy here. Those who have all the battery monitoring gauges and sensors (volts, amps, temperature, SOC and whatever else) to be totally immersed in what is going on in real time with their batts and charging system are often the ones who prefer an ACR and let it automatically make the decision on which banks to charge and when without their involvement at all. They gather up all this information yet sit back and let the system do whatever it will do anyway.

P.P.P.S.
As long as your credit card is out, the Balmar Series 98 - 310 amp marine alternator can be had from West Marine for $3128.00 bringing the system total to $4478.00. Who wouldn't want the best system possible?? Mr. Marine Electrician would love for you to think that way. I mean, if you don't go for the best you're foolish and probably won't make it home from Catalina without problems, right? You don't want any problems, do you? And so it goes.

[Matts Dad]

Neil,
I intend to work on the 120 vac wiring after determining appropriate components, but want to fix her to run first.
Just received book thru Amazon "Sailboat Electrics Simplified" by Don Casey, and hope it also helps. The ignition and battery switch are original equipment, so would they likely be ignition protected components? Thank you. Ronnie

[ndutton]

Casey's treatments are highly regarded so you're good. It's reasonable to expect the original ignition and battery switch are ignition protected so you're good there too.

Please don't be bashful about asking advice on this forum. The guys here offer good advice generated from a wide range of experience and are willing to help any way they can. That can't be said of any other sailboat related forum on the internet that I know of. You're in a good place for the tasks ahead.

[edwardc]

..Just received book thru Amazon "Sailboat Electrics Simplified" by Don Casey, and hope it also helps....

Also highly recommended is Nigel Caulder's "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual", available on Amazon. The chapter on batteries alone is worth the price of the book (IMHO).

[joe_db]

I can do what the ACR does manually. If the thing dies I would do just that until I got around to fixing it.
Most people cannot do so because very few boats now and no older boats came wired that way. An ACR or equivalent switching is not the same at all as a 1-2-All switch.

P.P.S.
The comment I've often made that drives the ACR camp apoplectic is I've never understood what is so difficult about turning a battery switch. In fact, there's a bit of hypocrisy here. Those who have all the battery monitoring gauges and sensors (volts, amps, temperature, SOC and whatever else) to be totally immersed in what is going on in real time with their batts and charging system are often the ones who prefer an ACR and let it automatically make the decision on which banks to charge and when without their involvement at all. They gather up all this information yet sit back and let the system do whatever it will do anyway.

[ndutton]

An ACR or equivalent switching is not the same at all as a 1-2-All switch.

OK, I'll bite. What would an ACR do for me that I cannot do with my two 1-2-All switches? With them I can draw from any of three banks independently or in any combination, same with charging with either the shore power charger or the alternator. The only limitation due to how I've run the cabling is the anchor windlass draws from House Bank 2 or in any combination including House Bank 2.

It is hard to see in the drawing but the battery switch terminal orientation is 1=8 O'clock, 2=4 O'clock and Common=12 O'clock

[joe_db]

You need to show your alternator wiring before I could answer for sure.

[ndutton]

Alternator output is a single cable to the starter post, Engine battery switch (the one on the left in the drawing) common attaches to the same starter post.

[joe_db]

Here is my setup:
Normally the engine starts from the engine battery and the house loads run off the house battery. The alternator feeds the house battery directly and when the voltage rises to the ACR set-point the engine battery is connected and charges as well.
Solar and shore power charging feed the house battery directly and I can set the combiner to charge the engine start battery too or not as I wish.
If someone leaves all the lights on and plays with all their electronic toys (can you tell teenagers are aboard ) or otherwise runs the house dead, all that needs doing is starting the engine.

[ndutton]

In response to the statement below the question remains, what would an ACR do for me that I - or anybody - cannot do with my two 1-2-All switches? My position in this thread has been the gadgetry and associated complication and expense is not necessary or in other words, completely optional which is contrary to what the OP has been reading from the internet 'experts'.

An ACR or equivalent switching is not the same at all as a 1-2-All switch.

edit:
Ronnie, would you please repeat the voltage measurement to confirm 16V alternator output? Perhaps with another tester?

[joe_db]

When I start my engine there is no voltage drop on the house side and no issues with various electronics not liking the noise or voltage drop*.
That you cannot do with the conventional 1-2-both switch no matter how you set it.
You also rely on the make-before-break feature of the battery switch if you ever change batteries with the engine running.
Having done about 6,000 offshore miles with the factory stock wiring, the routine of #1, both, start, charge, #2, both, start, charge, keep track of which one is which, hope the other watch doesn't screw it up, hope no one leaves it on both, do I trust the make-before break or is it getting corroded, etc. etc. could get old after a few hundred miles. I like my new system much better.
YMMV and IMHO

* this was a big deal when I was in the boat wiring business. Back in the day a lot of early GPS units and Lorans would decide the noise from the starter was data and reprogram themselves. We used to sell line conditioners to prevent this, but it was easier in the end to isolate starting and house loads. Modern stuff can still do this, but not anywhere near as often as it used to.

[ndutton]

When I start my engine there is no voltage drop on the house side and no issues with various electronics not liking the noise or voltage drop*.
That you cannot do with the conventional 1-2-both switch no matter how you set it.

Sure I can. Referring to my drawing, engine battery switch to "1", House battery switch to "1", "2" or "All" and my engine starts on the engine starter battery alone while the House banks continue to supply unaffected power to everything else.

As for relying on make before break, that's how the switches are designed and manufactured so yeah, I have no problem relying on that feature. I've never had one malfunction in 4 decades.

Crew making mistakes on watches, it's not a practical risk on my modest coastal cruiser. I don't sail distances where watches come into play. Guests turning battery switches? They know better and I've never had to be onerous about it. It's covered in my pre-sortie briefing along with life jacket location, head use and who's responsible for keeping the captain supplied with brewski's.

Further, I can do more with my switches than with an ACR. I have three banks: Engine, House 1 and House 2. At my choosing I can charge the engine bank alone while drawing off either or both of the house banks as described above, I can charge House bank 1 alone, House bank 2 alone, House banks 1 & 2 combined, Engine bank and House 1 combined, Engine bank and House 2 combined or all three banks combined. I don't see where an ACR can do that and all I have to do is turn a simple switch. I choose what gets charged and I choose what is drawn against, not some gadget doing my thinking for me.

AND, I have an extra $140 in my pocket.

"I've never understood what is so difficult about turning a battery switch"
It'll be engraved on my headstone

[joe_db]

My bad - it does work like you said, for some reason I didn't pick that up. That is not how very many, if any, production boats are built though.
I did have one of my battery switches get corroded and erratic and replaced a few on other boats too. A 15 volt zener diode across the alternator helps with that kind of thing. $2 zener and $3 resistor or a $20 Zap-Stop will do it

Sure I can. Referring to my drawing, engine battery switch to "1", House battery switch to "1", "2" or "All" and my engine starts on the engine starter battery alone while the House banks continue to supply unaffected power to everything else.

As for relying on make before break, that's how the switches are designed and manufactured so yeah, I have no problem relying on that feature. I've never had one malfunction in 4 decades.

Crew making mistakes on watches, it's not a practical risk on my modest coastal cruiser. I don't sail distances where watches come into play. Guests turning battery switches? They know better and I've never had to be onerous about it. It's covered in my pre-sortie briefing along with life jacket location, head use and who's responsible for keeping the captain supplied with brewski's.

Further, I can do more with my switches than with an ACR. I have three banks: Engine, House 1 and House 2. At my choosing I can charge the engine bank alone while drawing off either or both of the house banks as described above, I can charge House bank 1 alone, House bank 2 alone, House banks 1 & 2 combined, Engine bank and House 1 combined, Engine bank and House 2 combined or all three banks combined. I don't see where an ACR can do that and all I have to do is turn a simple switch. I choose what gets charged and I choose what is drawn against, not some gadget doing my thinking for me.

AND, I have an extra $140 in my pocket.

"I've never understood what is so difficult about turning a battery switch"
It'll be engraved on my headstone

[ndutton]

Thank you Joe. I think at the age of Atomic 4 powered boats, most if not nearly all would qualify as custom wired by now and hopefully for the boats on this forum, wired pretty well.

Can we agree the gadgetry we've been discussing is truly optional, that the internet 'experts' who advocate such systems purposely ignore a much simpler and affordable way to achieve a similar goal?

Here's an example:
Mr. Marine Electrician was a moderator on another forum I used to frequent and as such had forum moderation tools at his disposal. The discussion of ACR's came up, pretty much the same discussion as we had here and I was part of it. By the time it was over, some posts of mine that did not support Mr. Marine Electrician's argument were edited and outright deleted and not by me. Of course I called attention to what I felt was an abuse which was deleted too and I received a rude PM from the forum administration to essentially STFU. My posts were within published forum rules, were not rude or vulgar, did not attack personally and stayed on topic. The censorship was purely on technical content.