How much force is normal to put into gear?

[JimM]

I just purchased a 1978 Catalina 30 with an A4. In comparison to diesel engines I am accustomed to, this A4 takes a lot of force to put the engine into forward and bring it back into neutral. Some of the posts in the forum make oblique references to this condition, but I haven't seen any information on how much force should be considered normal and how much is excessive.

I initially thought the problem was the telegraph cable, but I disconnected it, and by itself the cable runs smoothly. However, operating the lever on the reversing gear by hand with the cable disconnected took two hands and a lot of grunting to get it into forward. In normal operation from the cockpit at the shift lever, I am pushing so hard I feel like I am going to break the telegraph cable. Should it be this hard?

I read in the forum about one of the adjustments that, if you are one notch one way it is too hard to shift, and one notch the other way and it slips. I just want to know before I go tearing things up if I should try to make the adjustment, or if this is a fact of life with this gear.

Also, in reverse there is a mild grinding/whirring noise not present in forward, and there is almost no reverse thrust. The Moyer manual indicates that reverse needs more revs than forward for the same thrust, but again, how much is normal?

Thanks in advance for all the help from an Atomic 4 newbie.

[sastanley]

Woo hoo - more C-30's!

Jim, Welcome to the group. I have a '77 C-30...hull #511. It requires some force to get the boat into gear. Is your shifter cable on the port side of the cockpit wall inside the "sail locker"? If so, your comments sound pretty normal. You gotta whack it to get it out of gear too...it is not a Zurth (or whatever they are with their own oil and stuff) like most diesels have...the clutch plates lock up for a direct drive in forward..there are fingers that ride up over a cone and then clamp down to engage the positive connection in forward, which is where the effort of pushing into gear comes from..you gotta expand those fingers over the cone. I think there are some videos on this site that may explain it better...but rest assured it is not an effortless maneuver. I think the P.O. of my boat actually broke the shift lever once, since the bottom 1" or so appears to be sheared off. You want a swift but controlled motion into the "detent" and you are good to go.

The reduction on the reverse side of things is 1.3 to 1. WOT in reverse I am at about 2,800 RPM. The whining is from the sun/planetary gear set and is totally normal. In reverse, there is no positive locking...it is done with a brake band similar to a drum brake, so you need to normally hold pressure on the gear shift lever in reverse to keep it there.

[Mo]

Jim,

Just reading your post I think your gearbox is out of adjustment. With the cable disconnected and you reaching in under the cockpit to shift it, the lever should move into forward...click...the same feeling as shifting a manual transmission on an old truck. No heavy pushing...a nice click and it's there. With a mis-adjustment it is very possible for the reversing gear not to engage properly. I will look through my things and see if I still have my explanation on how to do it.

[Mo]

Don Moyer had a great write up on that here somewhere. I couldn't find it and looked up one I did a while back. The MMI manual would give you diagrams etc....they might even have a video available on it by now.

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a)Adjust the forward notch one slot at a time until you have a good indent ( the indent should click down but not forced down. It should feel like shifting a manual shifter in an old pickup...just a click and it stays there). Should not require force....just a click.

b)Tied to a dock, put under forward power and see that she is moving water and no slippage noted.

c)Then try your reverse. If it doesn't catch right away don't fret. 3/4 inch wrench on the reversing gear nut clockwise....one click at a time and try it until it winds up in about 2 or 3 seconds. (ensure you oil is topped up to normal safe level when setting this up so that the adjustment is not interfered with by a lower level).

d)Once you have that set to where you think it should be do this. Remain tied to the dock.

1. check forward...indent as described above, no slippage, moving water.
2. check reverse...ensure it grabs...should hear engine rev then slow as it binds 2-3 seconds. At this point you should hear the reversing gear engage and she starts to move water.
3. check for a neutral position. This might be very small (likely will be) on your shifter. Keep moving the shifter slightly until you find a position where the shaft stops turning. (check point is watching the shaft turn inside the boat at the end of the engine).
4. mark that spot on the shifting console / binnacle with a piece of yellow tape (that's what I use) so that you know exactly where neutral is.
5. Put the cover back on with gasket and check for leaks.
6.Recheck oil level if any spilled/ splashed.

Note: I put the cover over the gear box after with a couple of snug bolts when checking. It does throw oil around during the run-up so ensure you don't make yourself too much mess. I figure it's a 2 beer job (I mark time in sipping a beer as we do it!)

Good Luck.

[JimM]

Thanks for the replies. The shift & throttle levers are on the port side of the cockpit next to the port locker. The shift cable is about 1/2" or more in diameter--biggest telegraph cable I've ever seen.

I have the Moyer manual which I think has the procedure for adjustment. I will give that a try. After all, what's the worst that could happen? No, don't answer that...

[roadnsky]

Don Moyer had a great write up on that here somewhere. I couldn't find it and looked up one I did a while back. The MMI manual would give you diagrams etc....they might even have a video available on it by now.

Mo-
Here's the procedure you're describing...
(There IS a video too)

FORWARD MODE ADJUSTING PROCEDURE
1) Place the cockpit shifting lever in neutral.
2) Recheck to be sure the reversing gear is in neutral by turning the prop shaft. The neutral position is at the point where the prop shaft turns most freely.

NOTE: If the forward clutch assembly is not in a good neutral position prior to adjustment, it will be very difficult to rotate the notched adjusting collar in step 6.
It's frequently necessary to move the shifting lever slightly in the reverse direction for the reversing gear to free completely.

3) Remove the access plate on top of the reversing gear assembly.
4) Rotate the gear case cluster until the retaining pin of the adjusting collar is facing upward.
5) Loosen the retaining pin until the staked collar can be turned on its threads. It is not necessary to completely remove the retaining pin from its threads to turn the adjusting collar.
6) Turning the adjusting collar clockwise (as you would be facing the engine from the rear) will tighten the clutch disks when in forward.
As a frame of reference, one notch on the adjusting collar make a large difference and is usually sufficient to prevent slippage.
7) Retighten the retaining pin.

CAUTION: It is very important that the end of the retaining pin extends into one of the notches on the adjusting collar before final tightening. If the end of the pin presses on the collar itself (between notches); or if the pin is simply over-tightened, it is extremely easy to break the cast iron pressure plate.

8) Place the cockpit lever in and out of the forward detent several times to insure a proper "feel". A solid detent should be felt while going in and out of forward, but the adjustment should not be so tight as to cause any concern that the ships cable and levers may be over stressed.

NOTE: Moving the forward adjusting collar one notch makes a rather profound difference in the force required to get the clutch assembly into and out of the forward detent. In some cases (particularly in pedestal mounted shifting levers) one setting can result in more force than might be desired, while the very next notch looser results in some slippage of the clutch assembly at high power settings. In the very latest engines (circa 1979 - 1981), Universal installed forward clutch adjustment collars with notches closer together to provide more control when adjusting the forward clutch assembly. You can check the difference in the two collars in our online catalog at moyermarine.com, product number: OREV_05_306.

9) If, after readjusting the forward clutch assembly, the neutral position of the shifting lever in the cockpit is in an awkward location, you can adjust the cable shackle at the engine, or cockpit shifting lever, until the cockpit lever is in a more natural neutral location.

REVERSE MODE ADJUSTING PROCEDURE
1) When the forward mode adjustment is correct, recheck the reverse mode for proper adjustment. There should be a well defined neutral range when coming out of the forward detent, and reverse mode should be felt comfortably before the shifting lever in the cockpit reaches the limits of its rearward travel.

NOTE: There is no detent in the reverse mode.

2) If the shifting lever in the cockpit reaches the limits of its travel before reverse mode is securely established, turn the 3/4" hex-headed nut of the reversing brake band clockwise.
3) If the reverse mode is reached too soon, and/or the neutral zone is so small that it is difficult to find a spot where the prop is not turning (one way or the other), turn the adjusting nut counterclockwise.
NOTE: It is not necessary to remove the retaining spring in order to turn the nut on the reversing band adjusting bolt.

FOR PEDESTAL MOUNTED SHIFTING LEVERS:
By way of background, pedestal mounted shifting systems typically have somewhat less cable travel than those which are mounted on the side of the cockpit. This makes them very prone to having problems associated with being able to reach both forward and reverse, and still have a reasonable neutral zone.
It's very important that the cable assembly is adjusted so that you're able to engage the forward detent near the end of the travel in the forward direction. This adjustment is necessary so that you will have sufficient travel in the rearward direction to accommodate reverse, and still have a reasonable neutral zone between forward and reverse.
In the past, we have seen several pedestal mounted systems where the range of cable travel had shifted so far in the forward direction, that there was barely sufficient travel remaining to reach the forward detent before encountering stops within the cable system. In this configuration, whenever the forward adjusting collar is set to provide a "stiffer" adjustment, the additional force required to get the reversing gear into the forward detent, results in the cable system reaching the limits of its travel before the detent is reached.

[Mo]

Thanks Jerry. That was the info I was looking for.

[prstack7]

I went about this job thinking I had read about the procedure, and it seemed fairly simple. When I got the cover off, put it in neutral, turned the shaft to make sure, loosened the retaining screw, then as I was turning the collar I slipped. I lost count as to what notch. Now I've made it worse. How can you tell it's in the detente? I moved the shifting lever forward, but I didn't feel any click. the shaft wouldn't rotate, so I thought I was in gear. However, when trying it out the boat barely moved into forward. I adjusted the collar one notch looser and still no forward. When I have the gear box open, is there a way I can tell that I've shifted into the forward detente?

[Dave Neptune]

prstack7, yes there is with the cover off. There is a "bell" shaped piece with a grove at the big end and there are arms that slide up and over the grove~~the illustrious detent. Work the shifter by hand if accessable and you can see the "arms" travel to the "detent" and when the arms go over and into the grove you should feel the "click" into the detent. Keep going til you feel it. If the arms won't go over the detent you are to tight!

Good luck!
Dave Neptune

[Ball Racing]

I adjusted the collar one notch looser and still no forward.

You will need to tighten the collar if you are slipping in forward, not loosen.

[prstack7]

I tightened the collar at first, then I couldn't get into the detente. That's when I tried loosening it one notch. If I understand correctly, being too tight the forward detente can't be engaged and too loose, the gear will slip in forward at higher rpms. When I was shifting by hand I didn't feel the forward detente engage, but I didn't really know what that would feel or sound like. Now I know I should be able to see the "arms" move, and hear and feel a click into the detente. I have a "77 Pearson 30, and it is very awkward to get to the rear of the engine.

[smosher]

Hi, I have a 74 P30 and I slide head 1st into the quarter berth and wiggle over
to the rear cover. When I adjusted mine I disconnected the shift cable then adjusted the collar until I got a solid clunk going into forward. It will take some force but I don't feel its alot to get it into the detent. As you move the transmission arm there comes a point when it just slides into the detent. Once there I ended up turning the collar one more slot. I put the cable back with the transmission engaged and the shift in the forward position.

I ended having to adjust the reverse as it would slip. Different nut but in the same location. I may have adjusted it 1 turn.

Steve

[prstack7]

Thanks. Is it possible to not be able to get into the detente if the nut is too loose? Or is it just if it is too tight?

[smosher]

If must be real tight for it not to go into detent, how does it shift and are you shifting it with the cable disconnected ?

Steve

[prstack7]

I tried to shift with the cable disconnected, but I could not get the gear into the detente.