Winterizing your Atomic 4

[sastanley]

Is there any problem with simply draining the block instead of filling with anti-freeze? Secondly, is there a need to drain water out of the entire exhaust?

prstack,

This is how my boat was winterized for the first 31 years by the P.O. I personally don't like this method, but it worked.

Since I've owned it, I chose to pickle it with pink RV antifreeze in the winter before converting to FWC this summer. I'll probably use green antifreeze in the raw water side of the system now, since it is only a couple feet of hose & the HX now that still has raw water in it.

[HarryB]

Winterizing

I removed the thermostat to pump antifreeze through my salt water cooled engine. With the bypass clamped off I have no flow of coolant through the engine (no coolant being discharged out the exhaust). If I remove the clamp from the bypass there is coolant out the exhaust as normal. The engine is running normally with no overheating. Any idea why I am not getting a flow of coolant through the engine?

[keithems]

alternative method?

i have the original thin blue a-4 owner's manual. it gives 2 ways to winterize:

1 -- basically as don recommends, pumping in antifreeze

-- or --

2 -- no antifreeze -- just remove the drain plugs [including the rear one on the manifold] and the impeller cover on the water pump and let everything drain out.

thus, i did # 2 this year, seeing as

• buffalo winters aren't nearly what they used to be and

• the water in my r/w cooled a4 [no thermostat] is fresh lake water, not salt, and

• i don't know if the batteries even will turn the starter over at this point and

• i have other things to do....

so...do tell -- is there any good reason not to do it that way?

also -- while i'm at it...when i decide to flush the cooling system....

• what are the pros and cons of using one of the many flush solutions made for auto motors?

• what about clr?

and if filling with antifreeze per method 1,

• what about adding some automotive anti rust solution?

• and is pure antifreeze preferable to the usual 50-50 blend?

thank you all -- and have a good winter!

[edwardc]

...
so...do tell -- is there any good reason not to do it that way?

I've never felt comfortable with the possibility that pockets of water will remain somewhere, such as in the low end of the manifold, and crack things when they freeze.

Even if the motor's not runable, it's pretty easy to winterize it by disconnecting the cooling water inlet at the side plate, and the cooling water outlet at the manifold, and use a small electric pump to circulate anti-freeze through the engine & manifold. If you have a late model, be sure to remove the thermostat and clamp off the bypass hose.

I've used a small pump meant for an outdoor fountain. I understand the inexpensive drill-mounted pumps work too.

Also, if you have a waterlift muffler, don't forget to drain that too, or pour a bunch of anti-freeze in there.

... is pure antifreeze preferable to the usual 50-50 blend?

Definitely not! A 50-50 mix will have a lower freezing point than pure anti-freeze.

[keithems]

fwiw

True, but my concern is the wet clutch. 30 weight oil from the 70's and 80's is substantially different from the modern oils. Oils now have additives not available back then. While possibly good for the engine parts they are not good for the clutch. I have seen wet clutches destroyed by modern oils. Thus my experiment as you call it.

Actually Robert Hess, our Canadian equivalent of Don Moyer recommends 10W40 oil for use up here because of the operating temperature in which the A4 is expected to run in our colder water.

i used to have slippage all the time.....until i got the cohones to adjust the reversing gear properly

now no slippage -- and seems to make no difference what the motor oil is [within reason, of course]

my original a4 manual recommends straight 30 wt OR 10W30

[keithems]

I've never felt comfortable with the possibility that pockets of water will remain somewhere, such as in the low end of the manifold, and crack things when they freeze.

i think that drain plug is at the low end of the manifold

Even if the motor's not runable, it's pretty easy to winterize it by disconnecting the cooling water inlet at the side plate, and the cooling water outlet at the manifold, and use a small electric pump to circulate anti-freeze through the engine & manifold. If you have a late model, be sure to remove the thermostat and clamp off the bypass hose.

no thermostat

i think i'll just take out the thermostat holder and pour antifreeze in from there

I've used a small pump meant for an outdoor fountain. I understand the inexpensive drill-mounted pumps work too.

Also, if you have a waterlift muffler, don't forget to drain that too, or pour a bunch of anti-freeze in there.

yes -- thanks

Definitely not! A 50-50 mix will have a lower freezing point than pure anti-freeze.

i don't think so -- usually the higher the antifreeze / water ratio, the lower the freeze point -- i'm just wondering if full antifreeze will be a problem -- it's not like a car -- since i have raw water cooling. i won't be operating with it, it just sits there for the winter.

[edwardc]

i don't think so -- usually the higher the antifreeze / water ratio, the lower the freeze point --

That's only true up to a point, after which the curve turns around.

Take for example automotive anti-freeze, which is based on ethylene-glycol:



As you can see, beyond about a 70% solution, the freezing point starts to come back up from a low of about -52C , with a pure anti-freeze solution only having a freezing point of -20C.

(reference graph from http://www.veximchem.com/products%20...ntifreeze.html)

[keithems]

very interesting!

somehow, i knew you knew what you were talking about!

so now i know why they always recommend a 70% concentration....

thank you!

although, i wonder...is there any harm in 100%? yes, i know it's not as low a freezing point...but -20 f is ok --even here in buffalo -- esp. given global warming

so is there another problem like increased corrosion? i know -- or at least have read -- that anti freeze is really corrosive, rust promoting, and they add rust inhibitors to combat that, but the rust inhibitors wear out much quicker than the antifreeze [glycol] does, etc.,etc.

k

[sastanley]

Ed, Thanks for that graph. I almost replied to keithems, but i didn't have any data to back it up, so I kept my mouth shut. But, I knew green anti-freeze @ 100% froze before the 50/50 mix. Glad someone has time to research & publish the details.

[edwardc]

somehow, i knew you knew what you were talking about!

so now i know why they always recommend a 70% concentration....

thank you!

although, i wonder...is there any harm in 100%? yes, i know it's not as low a freezing point...but -20 f is ok --even here in buffalo -- esp. given global warming

That is -20 Centigrade. Which translates to only -4 Farenheit.

[Mo]

Lets talk cold.

70 percent concentration isn't necessary for us. By no means use antifreeze with cutting it though. We used 50 / 50 in the Arctic without problems. I've seen some do 60 /40 but not many. How far up? ...Tuktoyuktuk NWT. Even Russ will get away with 50 /50 without problems.


Attached are a few pics. I was the medic up North and worked on that rig for about a year....spent 10 winters up there....It's 110 miles North of Tuktoyuktuk NWT iced in ... in the Beaufort sea. The aircraft. It's a Ken Borek Air Twin Otter....I did a few medevacs in those in my time...fly in anything, land in anything, and come out of anywhere.

[sastanley]

Great pics, Mo.

I could never live that far north. - Maryland is still too far north for me except that the cruising grounds are fabulous here in the summer (and the Patuxent River Naval Air Station that keeps me employed is smack dab in the middle of the Chesapeake Bay.)

I've been cruising the Chesapeake for almost 40 years and there are still places I haven't been to.

[keithems]

more in common

70 percent concentration isn't necessary for us. By no means use antifreeze with cutting it though. We used 50 / 50 in the Arctic without problems. I've seen some do 60 /40 but not many. How far up? ...Tuktoyuktuk NWT. Even Russ will get away with 50 /50 without problems.


Attached are a few pics. I was the medic up North and worked on that rig for about a year....spent 10 winters up there....It's 110 miles North of Tuktoyuktuk NWT iced in ... in the Beaufort sea. The aircraft. It's a Ken Borek Air Twin Otter....I did a few medevacs in those in my time...fly in anything, land in anything, and come out of anywhere.

i have about 1000 hrs or more in the dhc-8 twin otter -- flew for pilgrim airlines, the first us operator, based in groton / new london ct......flew down to lga, jfk, over to hvn, bdl, and up to bos, and yul.

used to land and take off on stol runways at jfk, lga, and bos -- basically 1500' taxiways -- with 19 passengers, baggage, and fuel.

[keithems]

That is -20 Centigrade. Which translates to only -4 Farenheit.

right -- knew it as soon as i wrote it

but even -4 f is below what we have here these days. it was around 60 f day before yesterday.

[Mo]

Shawn,

We don't "live" up there...we "survive" up there. Every move has to be calculated. One thing we always did was make sure our gear was working right ...if it breaks down you can freeze to death. I had an F350 Ford 4x4 diesel up there and not once did it let me down...I looked after it. Those that didn't look after their rigs soon learned that it will get you in trouble. Maybe that's why I try to stay ahead of the game with the boat as well.

Keith, I always loved the twin otter...I'm not a pilot, just a medic, but it was normally me and 2 pilots hanging around day in day out...and when the calls came in we went. I remember one night doing a medevac and the patient was stable...I was looking out the window on a full moon light. Looking down on the snow covered tundra was something else...almost like the lights were dimmed....anyway, I don't get to see that everyday. That plane in the pic is the one that did the rescue at the south pole back in 2001.

For you Pilots
http://polarflight-online.tripod.com/SPmedevac.htm We landed once in Helmut and had to look for runway lights...a pickup had to come out and find us. Once landed on the ice road and taxied up to a bad head on collision...got the patients and took off again.
I also flew with this guy. In the following artical you will see where he was fined 250 dollars....when he went to pay the fine it had already been paid. Rumor has it that the judge paid it http://www.uphere.ca/node/215
Why is it that people always get fubar'd when the weather is terrible. Honestly, could be a beautiful day for flying, and we'd be sitting around watching satellite TV and drinking coffee.