Hand starting

[Nahart]

Thatch,

Every time we have a hurricane in La. we lose power for good while. Bilge pumps overwork and in no time you have a battery too dead to start your engine. With that being said, I think Hand Cranking is an entirely appropriate and timely discussion.

[thatch]

"Different but the same"

Marker Dave,
In California, our power outages are normally caused by earthquakes rather than by storms or hurricanes. The results are similar and involve a similar "pre event" mentality. Where moored boats are concerned, we tie them up the best way we can and then hope for the best. With earthquakes, we prep our homes by tieing our water heaters down and use "earthquake approved" latches on our kitchen cabinets. Regardless of our efforts, we are always presented with a major amount of cleanup and repair. On a personal note, since power is always a major issue, my Honda 2000 plant is started on a monthly basis so that it is ready for emergency duty. Above all, is the overriding strength in some, that says, "regardless of what happens to me, I will do my best to see that I have done my best to see that my family and friends will be proud of my actions".

[Nahart]

Thatch,

I certainly would rather bad weather than an earthquake. I guess it's what you're used to.

You did say something interesting about the Model T...retarding the timing. That may be a clue.

I am at TDC staticly timed. I don't cruise much, just in and out of my slip, so I haven't adjusted at cruising speed.

[thatch]

MD
My test engine has accurate timing marks, so adjusting the timing to check for the best "cold, handcrank starting setting" is doable. TDC or a couple of degrees before TDC has always been my favorite timing settings.
Tom

[Dave Neptune]

Test one!

Tom et all, as most of you know I am a big proponent of the PCV as it cleans up the foul gasses being expelled by the crankcase and keeps them out of the cabin. I decided to test the RPM changes at idle with and without on my engine which IS TIRED AND 42 years running so far!!!!
I have been wanting to readjust my idle as it has sped up a bit the last few cruises or 15~20 hours of run time. What I did was to start the beastie and let her warm up for 15 minutes against the docklines. After warming up and with the PCV hooked up still I observed the idle speed, then I disconnected the PCV and plugged it to observer the differance. I then readjusted the idle for no PCV (plugged) and let it settle again, then I hooked the PCV back up and observed the differance. The third step was to readjust the idle again with the PCV and then again unhook and observe.
First run with PCV 850 nice idle and 800 when unplugged~note when unplugged the idle was a bit rough.
Second run readjusted the idle for no PCV and she idled at just above 850 and then plugged the PCV back in now she idled just above 900 and rough.
I then readjusted the idle with the PCV and adjusted the idle speed for the first time down to 750 RPM's and quite smoothe. I again unhooked the PCV and the idle dropped to 700 and a bit rough. I then shut then hooked the PCV back up and there she sits now.
I only saw an increase/decrease of about 50 RPM's with/without the PCV.
I did check the idle vacuum and could not see enough change with/without to measure on my gage~~a bit less than a half inch of vac though.
Tom, on your bench motor I will be interested to see the numbers you come up with regardine RPM.
Frankly I was a bit suprised that the change was so slight.
Yes the PCV may have an influence regarding hand starting but certainly not much.

Dave Neptune

[thatch]

Dave,
Thank's for taking the time to do those meaningful tests. Your results fall right in line with what I would have expected. There is one other element that I feel has a significant bearing on both idle speed and the ability to successfully hand start an A4. That is the element of ignition timing. As you know, I am a firm proponant of near or "slightly" before TDC timing. At that setting both my boat engine and "Rusty", my test engine, will idle rock solid at about 600 rpm. Maintaining a solid idle, while manuvering in and out of our docks, is of prime importance and I can say that I have never "stalled" in a critical situation with this "low" idle speed. While my "retarded" timing settings probably reduce my horsepower output as compared to a "power timed" A4, I consider the lower idle and easy starting to be beneficial. In the case of boats like Daniel's power skiff, where maximum power output is desired, I agree that power timing is the sensible way to go. With that approach though, comes the probability of more "blowby" and the necessity for corrective measures like PCV valves or extraction fans. Since you and I have both been involved with higher performance engines than the A4, I'm sure that we are on the same page as to the effects of ignition lead on idle speed. I, like many others, tend to look at "designed hull speed" as the target to shoot for when dealing with my sailboat engine's output. If I can attain H.S. with "mild" tuneup settings, then that's good enough for me. My comments are not meant to be argumentative, but rather to help "sort out" our tuneup challenges.
Tom

[Dave Neptune]

Yep

Tom, I do agree with your timing procedure and am going to find my engines actual timing before I move the distributor for this off seasons project. I am fabricating a sort of "Z" attachment for my dial indicator to find TDC for sure!!! I do and have always recomended backing back down from the "max" when power timing a duty or non racing application. This does improve the "life" of the tune and makes for a smoother and better running engine!!!!
Mine too will idle in gear at 650 anytime I need to and come to life if I need any additional power~very comforting to say the least especially in manuvering in a tight anchorage.

Dave Neptune

[thatch]

Thank's Dave,
If there is one area that Universal failed in the design of these engines, it would be in the area of timing marks. I have toyed with the idea of making a "tool" that slips over the "flywheel end crankshaft pin" and extends up high enough so that we can better position that pin in it's verticle TDC position. Once we have done that, we can either put good marks at the accessory drive pulley or (in the case of flywheel end readers) put the TDC marks closer to the outer rim of the flywheel.
Tom

[Nahart]

I purchased Don Moyer's video on engine timing and he has several different methods of finding true TDC and also explains the exact position to install the distributor. I highly recommend. It's only a 12 minute video and downloads in a minute.

[13jeff13]

Mike,
I'm quite sure that 12 volts worth of "D" cels would get the job done long enough for the alternator to take over. I have seen numerous "youtube" videos demonstrating A4 hand starting, but they all used a "charged" 12 volt engine battery. The "useful trick" would be in using whatever other DC source we could find to "innitiate" the firing process.
Tom

Yeah, ,You are correct. Don Moyer states it has to have at least 11 volts and it will still start.
Interesting. I have had motorcycles and Roto Tillers which have magnetos for generating the spark needed, for the coil and plugs,, but with these and auto engines, you need the battery to be there, and at least some voltage for the spark,, 11 Volts according to "The Man"..

Pasted from a previous post.

Jeff

[Nahart]

Finally

I had issues starting at all, which I detailed in another post.
However, I can now handstart my engine.

Timing at TDC
Full Choke
Half Throttle
Electronic ignition

The game changer was I replaced my Electronic Fuel Pump whith the Facet for Catalina 30's from Moyer's.

My engine was warm, so I will have to try again next time with a stone cold engine to see if I can get the same results.