Replacing fuel tank in E27

[Bryan Howell]

More in the seemingly never ending saga of my cursed boat. After doing everything the folks on this site suggested, everything I could think of replacing stuff, cleaning stuff, etc, I was confident my motor would start right up and run like a top. Not so much. Had to clean my brand new carb, had gunk, residue in it, main jet partially clogged, signs of water (floats coated with green patina, inside bowl stained a lighter shade). Filter full of water and crud. Spent a full day trying to clean out my fuel tank, and got it what I feel pretty sure 100% or close to it water free and thought I had most of the gunk out. As a test I ran the motor out of a glass jar of gas directly into pump inlet hose for a few seconds and it ran fine. Put in 4 gallons of fresh gas, primed the pump and filter, hit the ignition and wow, started right up, ran great. For about 1 1/2 minutes, then died. Out of fuel. Must have run on what was in the card, pump and filter down to the pickup level in the filter. Pumped out a little gas from tank, orange and lots of crud, pick up tube must have clogged. Maybe crud adhering to sides of tank that was freed when I put in more gas? Who knows, but there is a seemingly endless supply of crap in my tank.

I have no clue how to clean it any better than I did, pump out, add some fuel, agitate, pump, repeat, repeat repeat....and if I should even try. Questions 1) any great ideas on effectively cleaning the tank while in the boat? 2) how much of a job is it to remove and replace the tank in an E27. 3) How are they mounted? 4) Any general insights on any of this?

And finally, anyone know of a traveling mechanic for the Northern Neck area of VA, Potomac River about 14 miles north of Chesapeake (Coles Point). I am having major back surgery in a couple of weeks and will be out of commission for a couple of months, and want to get this and a couple of other small things taken care of before spring. Boat yard at my marina is basically closed, only do pulls out, power wash, etc.

Thanks in advance. You folks have never let me down.

Bryan Howell

[joe_db]

In my experience the tank has to come out. I have gone around and around with this issue on a couple of boats and past a certain point, you just can't fix it in place - or maybe ever. Last one we just got a new tank.

[Bryan Howell]

In my experience the tank has to come out. I have gone around and around with this issue on a couple of boats and past a certain point, you just can't fix it in place - or maybe ever. Last one we just got a new tank.

I really think you are 100% correct. Just fearing how complex, difficult and expensive it might be....

[joe_db]

On my boat it is maybe a 15 minute job not including getting the old gas out. YMMV

[ndutton]

I think it's a good strategy to replace for reasons of time investment and end result vs. clean, clean, clean of the old tank BUT you'd better figure out how the crud got in there in the first place or you're doomed to a brand new tank that will soon be full of crud and you're right back where you started.

[lat 64]

Making it happen, somehow.

I'm not sure what Joe_db is referring to as a 15-minute job.
Bryan has a bad back and will be that way for some time. I think he's looking for a deeper discussion how to address this tank issue.
With that, I'd say he should install a small new tank in a separate location and abandon the old tank to get sailing in the spring. Pump out the old tank when your sore back allows and remove it to the landfill. Replace the main tank as time and health allow and then switch back to the new(new new) tank. Perhaps using the little tank as a reserve.
Caution; a portable outboard motor tank will not be vented(properly) if you were tempted to use one as temporary. Also, primer bulbs are not right below decks.

Just my thoughts, that's all.

Recent threads discuss new tanks:

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10470

Russ

[joe_db]

I'm not sure what Joe_db is referring to as a 15-minute job.
Bryan has a bad back and will be that way for some time. I think he's looking for a deeper discussion how to address this tank issue.
With that, I'd say he should install a small new tank in a separate location and abandon the old tank to get sailing in the spring. Pump out the old tank when your sore back allows and remove it to the landfill. Replace the main tank as time and health allow and then switch back to the new(new new) tank. Perhaps using the little tank as a reserve.
Caution; a portable outboard motor tank will not be vented(properly) if you were tempted to use one as temporary. Also, primer bulbs are not right below decks.


Just my thoughts, that's all.

Recent threads discuss new tanks:

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10470

Russ

I was referring to my boat, where the tank fits right in and out easily. Some boats are that way and some require literally cutting the tanks apart and removing them in pieces - looking at you Grand Banks.
One boat I worked on had a steel tank fiberglassed into the boat
We ended up just leaving it there and installing another one somewhere else. I really can't help with a mechanic suggestion for that area. Sad to say paying for that work would end up costing quite a bit at the usual rates.
I have used an outboard tank on my boat by running a hose out to the deck, the tank CANNOT be used below. Also note if it is sitting above the engine it will siphon big time if left connected when the engine is not running unless the float valve seal is perfect.

[lat 64]

... Also note if it is sitting above the engine it will siphon big time if left connected when the engine is not running unless the float valve seal is perfect.

Ah, good point also.
My boat too, had a built-in tank. It was an integral part of the hull liner and just had a plywood and fiberglass top. I will eventually cut off the top and use it for battery storage away from the engine.

Perhaps Bryan can post a few photos of the current situation and let the peanut gallery offer suggestions. I imagine an E-27 may have space limitations.


R.

[Bryan Howell]

I think it's a good strategy to replace for reasons of time investment and end result vs. clean, clean, clean of the old tank BUT you'd better figure out how the crud got in there in the first place or you're doomed to a brand new tank that will soon be full of crud and you're right back where you started.

Neil, as always you are about 3 moves ahead of me. Love it. My boat sat on the hard, pretty much totally neglected, (long story, marina bankruptcy, etc, and me just giving up) for about 5 years. I have no idea what might have happened to it during that period of time. I know the boatyard left it open over the winter at least two winters, once at a slip, and sunk it. Since I have reclaimed it I have pretty much been thru everything, replacing anything that looks worn, checking for leaks, gas and water, (found 2 small gas ones in top of tank), replacing lines, parts, etc, etc. I think I can honestly say that as of now my fuel system integrity is good. PO had started a diesel conversion so had modified the tank for that. Can't help but wonder if that might be contributing to the gunk issue. It actually looks like rust, but it could also be Potomac River mud...

Replace is the way to go, I am convinced. Ugh.

[Bryan Howell]

I'm not sure what Joe_db is referring to as a 15-minute job.
Bryan has a bad back and will be that way for some time. I think he's looking for a deeper discussion how to address this tank issue.
With that, I'd say he should install a small new tank in a separate location and abandon the old tank to get sailing in the spring. Pump out the old tank when your sore back allows and remove it to the landfill. Replace the main tank as time and health allow and then switch back to the new(new new) tank. Perhaps using the little tank as a reserve.
Caution; a portable outboard motor tank will not be vented(properly) if you were tempted to use one as temporary. Also, primer bulbs are not right below decks.

Just my thoughts, that's all.

Recent threads discuss new tanks:

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10470

Russ

Russ, you hit the nail on the head. I am going to be out of the boat repair biz for several months but really want to hit the spring on all 4's (pun intended...) Some posts on the Erickson site tends to indicate removing the tank is a chore, requires cutting. That is something I am not inclined to do, unless I can do it with a robot from 250 feet away. Had thought about an outboard tank but had concerns about the venting.

[Bryan Howell]

I was referring to my boat, where the tank fits right in and out easily. Some boats are that way and some require literally cutting the tanks apart and removing them in pieces - looking at you Grand Banks.
One boat I worked on had a steel tank fiberglassed into the boat
We ended up just leaving it there and installing another one somewhere else. I really can't help with a mechanic suggestion for that area. Sad to say paying for that work would end up costing quite a bit at the usual rates.
I have used an outboard tank on my boat by running a hose out to the deck, the tank CANNOT be used below. Also note if it is sitting above the engine it will siphon big time if left connected when the engine is not running unless the float valve seal is perfect.

Joe, looking at my situation, and reading some posts on the Ericson site makes me think cutting the old tank would be required. I thing my tank had tabs on it that were then glassed onto the hull, not sure below or behind it because you can't see.

[Bryan Howell]

Ah, good point also.
My boat too, had a built-in tank. It was an integral part of the hull liner and just had a plywood and fiberglass top. I will eventually cut off the top and use it for battery storage away from the engine.

Perhaps Bryan can post a few photos of the current situation and let the peanut gallery offer suggestions. I imagine an E-27 may have space limitations.


R.

I will post some in a couple of weeks. Headed to Colorado for to a week and a half to watch my Broncos suck, then back to boat to finish up getting it ready for winter before my surgery. Thanks to everyone who has posted a reply. Afourians are the best.

[Bryan Howell]

Thanks for so much advice over the past couple of years! And now..a surge issue

Over the past almost 2 years I have been chasing demons with my A4. I have posted a lot of questions and always received multiple, excellent responses. For those of you who recognize my name, or my issues, I really want to thank you for all of the help. Now, the good news. I ended up replacing my fuel tank, the old one was just lined with crud, rust, it was awful. So pretty much all of my problems arose from that gunk getting into filters and the carb. Altho the run, shut down, run thing turned out to be the coil, which several of you suggested.


Trying to get the old tank out was a nonstarter. I found a smaller, 14 gallon, Moeller tank that fit perfectly under the transom lazarette, just had to trim about 1/4 inch off one lip to slide it down, turned it so that the the fuel fill and fuel pickup were on the port side where the old tank was, replaced the vent, found out that you have to prime brand new fuel lines (oops) and poof, starts right up first try every time. So mission accomplished. But....


As I said, engine starts right up, idles fine, revs fine at dock. Under load it has a surge. It will run a bit sluggishly, strong, not missing, but just not revving up freely, then it will pick up, again runs smoothly but at higher rpm. Then after a few minutes, kind of varies, it will bog back down. This cycle repeats. I KNOW it cannot be the carb/float. fuel line, or filters. To me a fuel pump either works or it doesn't (electric Moyer version) brand new coil, brand new carb, new plug wires, new fuel tank vent. I have electronic ignition, not sure, could it be something there? A sticky valve? I am thinking if it was a vacuum issue it would be constant, and would not run well period.

So after all my thanks, back to the well of A4 knowledge. Ideas? Thanks folks.

[JOHN COOKSON]

How long has it been since you have serviced the advance? (under the distributor breaker plate) It could be sticking.

TRUE GRIT

Edit: You may have a weak spark plug that is cutting out. Or something in the high voltage part of the distributor that is cutting out - rotor, distributor cap, wiring.

[capnward]

First, congratulations on the new fuel tank. That was the right move.
John is right to suggest a sticking advance, or some other high voltage issue. But if your engine only has problems with a load, in my experience that is more likely to be a fuel issue. Your description of it bogging down intermittently also sounds like fuel.
But you say you KNOW it is not. That must be because you cleaned the carburetor and especially the jets when you replaced the fuel tank, lines and filters. If not, the gunk may still be in the carb.
Also, even with a new tank, using ethanol laced gasoline may bring water which condensed out of the air on the inside of the tank into the filters and carb. IMO, a water separator filter like Racor won't work as well if ethanol blends water into the gas. I only have anecdotal evidence to support this theory. When I stopped using ethanol, the orange jellied gunk in my carburetor and filters did not return. The stainless steel fuel tank has not been cleaned or replaced in 30 years. But come to think of it, it was pumped out once when accidentally filled with diesel, so I guess that counts as a cleaning.
I used to have symptoms like yours until the engine warmed up. It would be fine upon starting, then bog down after a few minutes, still running but not well, and only with no load. It would clear itself after running for 20 or 30 minutes, sooner if I throttled down to an idle. Then it was fine. I guessed it was water getting into the carb, particularly the idle jets and idle ports, which evaporated as the engine got warmer. Cleaning the carb (particularly inspecting the idle jet for tiny obstructions) and replacing filters solved the problem for a while. In warm weather it happened less, and if I was running it often. Plus, humidity is not high here in the summer.
It seems to me those of us with A4s need to be used to removing and cleaning carburetors. I've got the whole process down to three hours. Access to the carb is easier on my boat than some others.
It sounds like your new tank is the same distance from the pump, and your vent is new, so that's not it. Good Luck!