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Old 06-13-2011, 02:50 PM
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Oil ring backing spring?

I just read something I really don't like:

Quote:
The original Atomic Four rings didn't have an oil ring backing spring, but the replacement Hasting rings do. It doesn't say in the instructions included with the Hastings rings, but the oil ring backing spring has to be installed with the gap in the spring over the slot in the piston at the bottom of the oil ring land. If you cover the slot with the backing spring the engine will usually burn oil after a rebuild.
Found here.

Anyone know anything about this? I was not so careful about the alignment of the oil ring backing springs with relation to the slot in the piston. I was careful regarding alignment of the ring gaps - or, more importantly, off-setting the ring gaps. But I don't think I installed the oil ring backing springs with the gap in the spring over the slot in the piston. The springs were sort of perforated along the edges, so I assumed that they would not block the slots enough to be an issue.

Jeez, I hope this is not true - I really, really don't want to have to open the whole damn thing back up just to spin the rings a few degrees...
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Old 06-13-2011, 04:51 PM
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Ow... Im in the same Boat...
figuratively...

Looking at it though, it seems that oil would still drain out...
But I too would like to hear some opinions on this...
Would NOT be fun taking everything back out for that. ... yikes.
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:27 PM
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Bill,
Although Hess is a well respected name in the A4 community, I would not be in a hurry to tear your engine appart to re-position the rings. Upon closer inspection of my standby, new set of pistons and rings, I fail to see how covering the piston slot is going to make much of an oil control difference. My "Hastings Rings" instructions makes no mention of the positioning of the backing spring and If it were really an issue it probably would have been highlighted.
Tom
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:49 PM
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I'm assuming the theory is that the slot in the oil ring groove assists in allowing excess oil scraped off the cylinder wall to drain down back into the crankcase, and the spring can cover the slot, presenting a barrier to that "return" oil flow.

The springs that came with my ring set (from Moyer) are kind of "perforated" along the edges - sort of like postage stamps - and it certainly seems to me it's unlikely they would present a sufficient barrier as to prevent that oil flow - assuming, again, that that is the supposed issue.

I guess I will find out when I get the engine running - and of course, before I have to worry about it burning oil, I first have to get it to have some oil pressure!

Flying home this Friday; I plan on working on the engine this weekend, with my goal being getting it all running and dialed in by the end of the weekend. Here's hoping.
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:15 PM
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Thumbs up Good to know.

Another tid-bit to store in the back of my tiny little mind. Great info.
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:38 PM
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I'm not sure I believe it, though. I'd love to see someone from Moyer weigh in...
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:56 PM
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Agreed

Bill,
On this issue, I think it would be appropriate.
Tom
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:30 PM
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Talking

With due respect for Mr. Hess I have to say that in all the ring replacements I have done on A4s I have never heard of this and obviously never followed the procedure. Never had a ring problem. FWIW
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Old 06-13-2011, 09:52 PM
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how do I post a new thread?

how do I post a new thread?
genefa
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genefa View Post
how do I post a new thread?
genefa
1. Click on the link in the upper left corner of the page that says "Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians". That will take you to the main forum page.

2. Scroll down the page below the "recent threads" section, and select the appropriate section of the forum to post your new thread in. For example, "Overhaul" or "Cooling System." Click on the appropriate section.

3. Once you're there, you'll see a button in the upper left corner that says "New Thread".
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:21 PM
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Wondering if anyone has a photo showing the Atomic 4 piston oil groove?

If it's anything like the one in the early Norton Commando 750/850 I can only quote what the man at Venolia pistons told me when I questioned the lack of such a slot in the new pistons Venolia made up for me;

"no one designs or makes pistons like that anymore!"

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Old 06-13-2011, 11:31 PM
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Well I didn't get any good pics of the pistons when I had mine out, but thatch sent me a couple pics backchannel, and I'm assuming he won't mind if I "borrow" them. These show the slot as well as the oil ring backing spring:





As Tom observed when he sent me those pics, it seems to me there's plenty of perforations for oil to drain back in, and if you look carefully at the backing spring, you'll see that it has little cuts out of the edges, so it shouldn't block anything to the extent that oil can't return to the crankcase.

I'm just trying to figure out how having the spring in there with the gap not aligned with the slot would cause the engine to burn oil.
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Last edited by ILikeRust; 06-13-2011 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:24 AM
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Question

I have often wondered about those little cutouts in the backing spring. Years ago I worked with some that did not have them. Is it possible than Mr. Hess's comments predate the introduction of that feature and that possibly the feature is a solution to the problem Mr. Hess describes? Just speculating, but it does seem to help "idiot proof" the installation which in my case has worked!
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:32 AM
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We can all breath a long sigh of relief. According to Hastings tech service (as per a telephone conversation between Lisa of Hastings and Don Moyer from MMI) the orientation of the oil ring expander spring has no consequence on its function, either with respect to the location of the end gap of the spring or in terms of which side goes up or down.

Hanley, I also have a vague recollection of expander springs of a slightly different design which would handily explain the Hess caution note. However, when I posed that possibility to Lisa, she said it was entirely possible but it would have been before her time (made me feel a bit dated).

Don
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:39 AM
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"Oops"

Don,
Thank's for your input, it's always reassuring.

Bill,
If I had known these pictures were going public, I would have scrubbed the grout first.
Tom
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:19 AM
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Don - thanks very much for the confirmation! Phew...

Tom - nobody was looking at your grout. Until you said something about it.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:23 AM
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Oh no! Did Tom say he had gout? Say it ain't so!

How is it Tom that your wife allows engine parts on the counter?
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:22 AM
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"When the cat's away"

Neil,
Obviousely Kay wasn't at home when the pictures were taken. About 41 years ago she knew she had a problem when she came home from work one day and found a set of pistons in the dishwasher.
Tom
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:44 AM
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I kept our old toaster oven when my wife bought a newer, better one - I keep it in my shop for baking small parts after spray painting them, and for baking japanning on old tools.

Because I really doubt I could get away with baking painted parts in the "good" one in the kitchen.
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:06 PM
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Bill, what a great idea! I still use the sunshine and it is sometimes hard to come by in sufficient quantities. I always have parts laid out in the sun on the hood of the old truck, on the blacktop in the driveway, etc..
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:24 PM
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If you bake even just regular ol' Rustoleum, it gets good and hard and, if done carefully, you actually can get a finish that looks like powdercoating.

I painted the red "hub" for the spokes on this pimped-out drill press using red Krylon. I laid it on a little bit thick and baked it, then sanded it with 220-grit, wiped it down with solvent, laid on another thick coat and baked it again.

I had two different guys ask me whether I had it powder coated.



To bake a spray painted part, first bake it at maybe 150 degrees F for and hour or two, then kick it up to 200 for maybe two hours. You have to be careful because if you bake it too hot too quickly, the paint will boil and you'll get bubbles and pits (don't ask me how I know this), and if you bake it too hot for too long, you can scorch it (again, DAMHIKT).
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
Well I didn't get any good pics of the pistons when I had mine out, but thatch sent me a couple pics backchannel, and I'm assuming he won't mind if I "borrow" them. These show the slot as well as the oil ring backing spring:





As Tom observed when he sent me those pics, it seems to me there's plenty of perforations for oil to drain back in, and if you look carefully at the backing spring, you'll see that it has little cuts out of the edges, so it shouldn't block anything to the extent that oil can't return to the crankcase.

I'm just trying to figure out how having the spring in there with the gap not aligned with the slot would cause the engine to burn oil.

Yep...just like a Norton Commando piston only the grove isn't quite as long on the Norton piston.

Just remember what the Venolia engineer told me!

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