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  #51   IP: 72.45.14.161
Old 03-11-2012, 10:57 AM
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Easy check:
Take the hoses off the manifold. Run a garden hose into the foward end and water should come out the aft end. You can do this on or off the engine. Moyer sells new manifolds too
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  #52   IP: 98.225.57.144
Old 03-11-2012, 02:11 PM
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Junaido,
the exaust manifold on my C27 was blocked when I purchased the boat. Same symptoms you are experiencing. It took 30 minutes to clear and clean it out as follows:
I connected a hose to the upper coolant water intake fitting on the manifold. I ran the hose up out the companion way hatch to a funnel tied to the boom. I then connected a hose from the coolant water exit fitting ont he manifold to 5 gal bucket in the port cockpit lazzerette. I filled the funnel with the muratic acid/water mix and let it sit. After 15 minutes black muratic/water mix started to trickle out the exit hose into the bucket. After the funnel and hose was empty of the acid mix, I did it again. this dose only tool about 5 minutes and then it was flowing well. I then connected a garden hose to the intake port on the manifold and flushed it out. I did,nt dlo this next step but once you have it cleared out, you may want to connect a tire pump to one of the coolant fittings on the manifold and a air pressure gauge to the other and pump about 20 lbs of pressure into it. If it holds air pressure, the manifold is reasonably sound and should have no water leaks into the intake and exhaust gas ports.

That said, I assume you are still in Bellingham. Not the best weather for your trip anyway.

mark

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  #53   IP: 67.183.79.110
Old 03-12-2012, 01:49 AM
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OK, just returned from Bellingham after a weekend messing with the A4. We are not mechanically inclined , we have tried our best to get this A4 going but beginning to think we are out of our depth here.

To wit, debugged the water circuit starting at the through hull (its fine), water pump impeller (old one looked kind of shot, all the vanes were intact but a little force from a needle nose plier and the thing pulled off its metal core and came off), we took out the thermostat, checked that there was a healthy flow of water coming out from the thermostat dome and we checked the 90 degree elbow thingy on the manifold intake.

We rigged up the muriatric acid IV as per Mark's post (thank you Mark), with the funnel and hose going into the manifold. Most of the water/acid mix just stayed in the hose going into the manifold, maybe a cup of fluid came out the other end after about 30 minutes of this exercise. We did see some air bubbles come up the acid-filled hose. We then replaced the intake t-stat dome and ran the engine for a little bit with the same depressing trickle coming out the exhaust side.

Then we tried sticking a garden hose on the manifold water intake (the place where the hose from the thermostat dome enters the manifold). There is some pretty major blockage in there because after 30 seconds water started spraying back and I could not hold the hose in place. Only a trickle came out on the other end.

Two days of wrestling with A4 has yielded no improvement in the situation. We spent the remaining time installing an outboard bracket on the transom for "plan B". The idea of spending $600 for a manifold and then playing whack-a-mole with other problems like rusty exhaust and and who-knows-what-else does not sound very appealing.


We may have found the only mechanic in Bellingham who is willing to take a stab at an A4. He will look at it next week and give us his prognosis.

Junaid

Last edited by junaido; 03-12-2012 at 01:56 AM.
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  #54   IP: 67.78.241.34
Old 03-12-2012, 08:41 AM
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Talking Plugged ManifoldS

Sounds like you have isolated the problem which is half the battle. The manifold may have to come off for a cleaning which is not a big deal. It is possible to remove the two side casting plugs and either replace them or open the holes up for 3/4" NPT plugs. Your mechanic will explain this. The good news is that your manifold sounds like it holds pressure. Don't give up.
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  #55   IP: 148.170.241.1
Old 03-12-2012, 08:54 AM
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Obviously you have to decide what's right for you, but I would urge you not to give up on your A4. There are too many out there that have suffered the same ignominious fate, to be replaced by an outboard slapped on the transom.

It really is not a complicated engine, as boat engines go, and I feel confident it can be made to run well and reliably. It always makes me just a little sad when I see a boat with an old A4 sitting unused down below, and an outboard bolted to a big bracket off the back pushing the boat around. I think you might find that the outboard is enough move the boat around in calm waters, but if you're out in anything a little uglier and need some power to punch through waves or a headwind, you might find the outboard is not up to the task, whereas your A4 would take it all in stride.

I would think you could either free up and unclog that manifold, or look for a salvaged one for sale on Craig's list or eBay or from local boatyards or marinas. I see used Atomic 4 engines and parts on Craig's list and eBay around here from time to time. That is, if you don't want to spring for a brand new one from Moyer, which, believe me, I fully understand. There is an advantage there, in that you know you are getting a brand-spanking new, quality cast part, with top-notch, excellent customer service standing behind it. The trade-off would be potentially spending much less for a used one, but without really confidently knowing how good it is. But of course, you can always carefully inspect it and negotiate a good price and terms with the seller.

Anyhow, I agree with Hanley - don't give up yet!
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  #56   IP: 199.173.224.32
Old 03-12-2012, 09:41 AM
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Cleaning the manifold is a pretty easy* job. One way is just take it off and give it to a radiator shop to boil out.

*assuming the nuts aren't too corroded to get a socket on.
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  #57   IP: 67.237.207.128
Old 03-12-2012, 09:53 AM
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Broken record here. I just pulled out a manifold I got a couple of years age. Trying to run a wire down it with the fittings on was not possible. After removing the fitting access was much better. The water passage seems to be a fairly straight shot from end to end on the top and outside of the manifold. There may be some kind of ridge about midway but it is hard to tell.
I know I am not the one hunched over your engine or how accessible your engine is. If removing it is not what you want to do I would give cleaning it another shot.This time with out the fittings. Some liquid is getting thru so there must be a opening. Attack from both ends. A little water in one end, ream it with the wire. A little water in the other end, ream it with the wire. Repeat. Repeat. Remember the eye protection if any acid is involved. The high pressure my just be jamming the stuff worse. If you start getting flow then add some pressure. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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  #58   IP: 8.19.13.22
Old 03-12-2012, 02:09 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Outboard engines aren't trouble free!! As long as you have an engine on a boat you are going to have M&R (maintenance & repair) issues. An outboard add on will decrease the value of your boat.

I got so sick and tired of the 90 degree elbow on the south end of my A4manifold jamming up I replaced it with a straight barb. No more problems. Maybe this is all you need to do.

If you decide to pull the plug on the A4 take it off the boat and sell it. Why carry around the dead weight? You could get a few thousand for it.

TRUE GRIT
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  #59   IP: 198.182.56.5
Old 03-12-2012, 02:16 PM
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We have not given up on the A4 but are now thinking of it as a more long term project. It will not get us to Seattle, hence the outboard.

We did take the fittings off the manifold and try to ream it with a coat hanger wire. It would stop after going in an inch or two. I didn't push really hard for fear of breaking something.
Once we get it to Seattle I will try the acid cleanse and maybe take it to a radiator shop and boil it out.
If all else fails, there are qualified A4 experts in Seattle ( Pat's Marine ) that can fix it.
Boat will be kept in Lake Washington so fresh water will finally flow through this A4's veins if they ever get unclogged :-)


Thanks again for all the helpful advice and tips.

Junaid
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Last edited by junaido; 03-12-2012 at 07:44 PM. Reason: cropped images
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  #60   IP: 148.170.241.1
Old 03-12-2012, 02:34 PM
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Thumbs up

There's not really anything inside the manifold you're going to break by poking with a coat hanger wire. It's a big hunk of cast iron. If you managed to break through a coolant passage or something with a wire hanger, it was shot anyhow.

Hey, maybe you could reduce the size of your photos before you post them - it would make them far easier to take a look at...

Keep us up to date on the progress!
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  #61   IP: 8.19.13.22
Old 03-12-2012, 05:51 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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After Seeing The Pictures I'd Like To Change My Diagnosis

The black stuff appears to be all through the cooling system - impeller to thermostat. Bet this is the same stuff that is cloging the manifold. Looks like the side plate (by the alternator) needs to come off too.

Here's what to do: Soak the theromstat in vinegar. If vinegar gets rid of the black stuff then acid should clean out your cooling system. If vinegar doesn't remove the black crud you'll have to find a solvent that does.

Best of luck.

TRUE GRIT
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  #62   IP: 67.78.241.34
Old 03-12-2012, 06:05 PM
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Talking

There is one more thing you could try before pulling the manifold, if you have access to both coolant holes on top of the manifold. Cobble an adapter to the rear hole and hook up a garden hose. Then take everything off the front hole and get ready with a few pieces of mechanic's wire. Put the pressure on and start working with the front hole. This will be messy but if it works the payoff will be enormous.
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  #63   IP: 98.225.57.144
Old 03-12-2012, 08:31 PM
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Junaido,

If you still have some acid left try it again. Let it sit in the hose, it won't hurt the hose but it will start eating away at he blockage. The black stuff is normal for an old raw water cooled engine.

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  #64   IP: 198.182.56.5
Old 03-12-2012, 08:35 PM
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I have a lot of acid left (2/3 gal), I intend to use it to the last drop :-)

Junaid
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  #65   IP: 76.90.247.252
Old 03-17-2012, 12:14 AM
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Hi I think an outboard is a good idea, it gives you a way to get the boat home and if placed right you can store the motor for the dink and have a back up as necessary. If you find the right bracket you might even be able to use it as a boarding ladder/step. I would try and get a small 4 stroke and then you have spare fuel for the atomic 4. When you get the boat to it's new home take your time and go through everything and replace as necessary then you will know what you have and how to fix it. With the outboard you can still sail when you want. Having just done an acid flush it is like magic just keep doing it until the water runs free.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:11 AM
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Smile Thanks

Just joined this site, I purchased a Schock Santanah 27 this past fall and am getting ready to launch. This is the first time Sailing anything larger than a shark, love reading these posts and they seem very helpfull. Thanks everyone. I'm in Ontario near Niagara Falls.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:01 PM
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Talking

At this point I think further acid flushing is counterproductive and will only strengthen the blockage. Your best option now is high pressure backflushing of the manifold with a garden hose. You cannot hold it by hand; it must be tight threaded fittings. You need to get from 1/2" NPT, the rear hole on the manifold, to garden hose so you can really get some pressure in there. Watch the junk come out that front hole!
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  #68   IP: 198.182.56.5
Old 03-21-2012, 05:24 PM
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Boat is now in Seattle. Even the outboard (borrowed) flaked out on us near Camano island, probably due to carb issues. Its ironic how dependent we "sailors" are on our boat engines. Thankfully we had invested in unlimited saltwater towing package at Boat US and they towed us all the way to Seattle area. Since then we have bought an almost brand-new Tohatsu 4-stroke outboard and hopefully will have at least one reliable means of propulsion.

Now that the boat is more accessible we are going to really poke and probe this A4 until we figure out what is wrong with it. I think a quick visit to the local A4 mechanic is also on the cards. I will post any updates and questions once we have her in her new home on Lake Washington.

Junaid

Last edited by junaido; 03-21-2012 at 07:12 PM. Reason: fixed typo
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:37 PM
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Junaid

A number of posts ago you mentioned the Globe Impellers as replacement. They
do not work reliably in the Oberdorfer pumps. Best to get 2 fresh impellers
from Moyer marine. They do have a shelf life so you want fresh ones.

Best Regards

Art
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:40 PM
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I have used the globe impellers and they do not work as well as the ones from Moyer.

Steve
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  #71   IP: 198.182.56.5
Old 03-21-2012, 07:09 PM
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I ended up getting the impeller made by Universal (part #6593).
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:01 PM
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Junaid,
Congratulations! I'm glad you made it down. Are you now moored in Lake Washington or Union?
At any rate, keep us posted and PM me if you like.

Mark
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  #73   IP: 198.182.56.5
Old 03-23-2012, 03:41 PM
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Update

So the local A4 mechanic looked at it today. Engine fired up right away. He was very favorably impressed with how well it starts up and runs. The mainfold cleaning is relatively trivial in his opinion, but he was very concerned about the rusted exhaust. Apparently the elbow is shot. We kinda knew that because we could feel the pipe moving under the cladding, it was probably only held together because of the cladding. He quoted about $600 for 3 hours of labor and materials. It will be replaced with a stainless exhaust elbow that he claims will last longer than the boat. He basically said that without fixing it we were risking death from CO poisoning.


Questions :

Is this exhaust system a DIY project or better left to the experts ?

Can you patch up the rusted stuff with a pipe sleeve or muffler tape etc., or is replacement the only option ?

Is welding required to replace exhaust hot section ?

Do you really need an elbow or can you run a slightly angled down pipe to hose and put a valve in it to prevent back-flooding ?

Junaid
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  #74   IP: 96.248.13.91
Old 03-23-2012, 03:50 PM
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You can build your own hot section using a Moyer threaded exhaust flange adapter and some black iron pipe, which you can get from a plumbing supply place, and wrap with the Moyer heat wrap kit.

My entire hot section cost less than $100.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:53 PM
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To more specifically answer your questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
Is this exhaust system a DIY project or better left to the experts ?
It's not a hard DIY project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
Can you patch up the rusted stuff with a pipe sleeve or muffler tape etc., or is replacement the only option?
Replacement is warranted rather than trying to patch together rusty stuff. This is not an old Chevy - the exhaust is inside the boat - you don't want that leaking. Plus it directs the discharge water out the back - you also don't want that leaking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
Is welding required to replace exhaust hot section?
No - you can use threaded black iron fittings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
Do you really need an elbow or can you run a slightly angled down pipe to hose and put a valve in it to prevent back-flooding ?
It depends on where your hot section is in relation to the water line.
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