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  #51   IP: 138.207.177.95
Old 05-29-2022, 03:07 PM
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You WILL pay, the choice is what. Your time or your money, the cheap stuff takes a lot of experimenting and the Moyer stuff just works but costs more.
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Old 05-29-2022, 06:22 PM
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My new sailboat instruments

I am buying BOIH of these new "instruments" for Moonduster:

1) A very S I M P L E tach that is perfect for my needs. I may even mount it in the engine bay.

https://www.amazon.com/Maintenance-T...7PMJH7QV&psc=1

2) A cool sailing instrument that will cover the big tach hole
and add sailing "knowledge:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FGCTMT2...p_imgToDp&th=1

Last edited by bigoledave; 05-29-2022 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 05-29-2022, 06:37 PM
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  #53   IP: 24.19.226.68
Old 05-30-2022, 12:47 AM
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Eureka--I found a 12v COIL driven 4k tach for $60

Ebay!!!

I am still keeping my order for the small tach that gets it's pulse
from a spark plug wire in case this has problems. Anyway..no
more adding "speed sensors" or paying people to hack my unloved
blue alternator (which has given ZERO problems in the 43
years on the boat.)

Here is what I found...perfect if it really works...coil sensing...the
range I want ..and the size I want....and inexpensive too.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13290736972...6f6%7Ciid%3A14
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Old 06-09-2022, 10:45 PM
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Smile Eureka----NEW tach, NEW alternator

Greetings,

Long story..(read the old posts if you like.)

I have found a NEW tach with IGNITION COIL sensing

..and

I have found a NEW alternator that "fits Atomic Four"

Both are solutions which started with me buying a cheap tach that
seems to NOT work with coil sensing and looking at how to get
it working with my very old alternator/separate regulator.

During testing to see if I could that combo working, the charging
functions completely stopped. Not sure if me poking around the
coil negative terminal caused this or.... it was a verrry amazing coincidence.
Either way..I then had a tach that I could not get to work, an old
blue painted alternator, a bunch of field and armature wires,
an electro-mechanical regulator and...and....I was finally ready for
an all new "system"...charging and RPM displays.

So....I searched A LOT of sources..Ebay..auto supply stores..
Amazon....etc.etc.

Amazingly..I think I have found solutions!...a $100 alternator with
a "one wire" connection.....and a $50 COIL SENSING 3000 RPM
tach.

Both are on the boat and LOOK to be great as far as fit is concerned.
I plan on hooking them up in the next few days and will post
results and pictures.

Cheers

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254384243528
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284470973289

Last edited by bigoledave; 06-09-2022 at 10:49 PM.
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  #55   IP: 104.174.83.118
Old 06-10-2022, 08:38 AM
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It may seem like an off the wall question but . . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoledave View Post
3) I have an Indigo electronic ignition.
. . . . what is the output voltage of the new alternator? Depending on the answer it can be a VERY important question.

Also, with the larger case size of your new Delco 10Si alternator there may be a small fitment problem that is easily solved with a grinder. These posts describe the remedy:

https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...6&postcount=18
https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...23&postcount=3
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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Old 06-10-2022, 08:26 PM
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Reply....voltage question and fitment

It is described as 12v....so ..ok!

New Alternator fits Universal Atomic Four 4-Cyl 12V 63 AMPS CW 64 65 20037

I loosely installed the alternator (no bolts) and it looks good!!

Thanks for your comments
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Old 06-10-2022, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoledave View Post
It is described as 12v....so ..ok!
My Delco 10Si alternator (same as yours) produced 14.7V originally. If yours does the same, with electronic ignition you risk engine shutdowns due to an overheated coil. I'll guaranty this: despite the 12V description there's no way its output is less than 13.8V.

Once I installed mine and measured the output for myself I replaced the internal regulator immediately down to 14.0V. There are several threads on the subject but this one explains what's going on pretty well. The discussion centers around coils but the coil input voltage is a critical factor. Since the alternator is producing when the engine is running, its output voltage is what the coil receives less any systemic voltage drop (voltage drop should be less than 3%).
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 06-11-2022 at 09:19 AM. Reason: acknowledged ignition system voltage drop
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  #58   IP: 24.19.226.68
Old 06-11-2022, 07:10 PM
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Thanks for the information.

The first time I "fire it up" with the new alternator
I will have a voltmeter on it...and then go from there.

Reading about a coil for sale by Moyer:
Coil – with internal resistance
"..Ideal for both the early and late model Atomic 4, these coils are designated and labeled as “Standard 805”. We have been using them on our Exchange Engines for at least 15 years and selling them in our parts catalog for almost as long with no known failures which attests to their apparent good quality. Their primary resistance measures between 3.6 and 4.0 ohms at 70 degrees F which meets or exceeds the primary resistance requirements for Atomic 4s with conventional (points and condenser) ignition system and those with Ignitor electronic ignition systems and alternator charging rates up to 14.2 volts.
(IGLM_05_31)
NOTE: Except for warranty exchange, this ignition item is not returnable.

I can not remember when I purchased the coil installed now and an identical spare I have..maybe I got them from Indigo?

Anyway...I will measure the coil resistance and play with the spreadsheet.
I will consider the addition of an external ballast resistor. I am not
enthused about modifying my new alternator to reduce the max
output voltage but of course are curious as the modification you said
you did to yours.


Comment about overheating and damaging the coil:
- I had a verrry hot engine "episode" last year with a REALLY
overheated engine....and the coil still works...which is mounted
to the head. This MAY indicate the coil MAY operate fine while "hot".

-My engine runs very cool as I am raw water cooled here in the
Northwest with NO thermostat mounted. This is the way it always has
been plumbed for the 34 years I have had the boat. I purchased
a kit from Indigo to make it run hotter.....but these old adages always
make me hesitant to add all the crap to my simple boat. The huge
heat sink of the engine block must keep the coil somewhat "less hot"

1) Keep it Simple Stupid
2) If it is Not Broken.. Don't Fix It

Cheers
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  #59   IP: 104.174.83.118
Old 06-12-2022, 01:01 PM
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There were several other factors besides the ignition V=IR balance that pushed my decision to replace the internal voltage regulator. My antifreeze cooling system uses electric pumps and their voltage specification is 12V +/- 20%. The alternator came with a 14.7V output which exceeded the maximum specified. I also have an electric fuel pump, refrigeration, autopilot, GPS, GPS plotter, depth instrument, VHF and so on that would be subject to the alternator output voltage when the engine was running so I felt pretty strongly all would be happier and survive much longer if I toned down the voltage.
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Old 06-12-2022, 02:04 PM
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Thanks for the info....

Ok...I am curious of course. If you felt like a writing post showing how
you adjusted the voltage that would be interesting. It is very
hard (lots of amps!) to charge a lead acid battery of any decent size to mid 14 voltsis it not? That would require a pretty high current level to do that. I always
run with my two batteries "on" so "forcing" their voltages that high
is even harder. (My two cents.)

Cheers
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Old 06-12-2022, 02:24 PM
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Exclamation Good advise

The voltage regulator controls the alternator which controls the output voltage, NOT THE BATTERIES.

The early and late A-4's were even shipped from the factory with a ballast resistor. Once you convert to an EI the resistor really becomes necessary for a happy coil as the "dwell" which charges the coil is a far longer elapsed time between pulses.

Neil and many others did a lot of work to get coil killing under control. That work has been verified many times over. My advise is to listen to him or Tom at Indigo.

The block will not work as a heat-sink as it is not in any real contact through the coil clamp.

Dave Neptune
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  #62   IP: 104.174.83.118
Old 06-12-2022, 02:25 PM
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There's no adjustment, the internal regulator is a fixed voltage and must be replaced. Before tackling the project it's important to know how to retract and hold the brushes inside their holder to reassemble the alternator. If you don't you'll break the porcelain brush holder and create bigger problems with your new alternator. It involves a small retaining rod tool through a hole in the brush holder through the back of the alternator casing.

The first picture is the regulator, the second is the components inside the open alternator. While you'e in there we could talk about adding an AC tap but that ship has sailed, hasn't it? Let's get your alternator output voltage measured before we go off the deep end.
Attached Images
  
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  #63   IP: 104.174.83.118
Old 06-12-2022, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoledave View Post
It is very hard (lots of amps!) to charge a lead acid battery of any decent size to mid 14 volts is it not? That would require a pretty high current level to do that. I always
run with my two batteries "on" so "forcing" their voltages that high
is even harder. (My two cents.)
With an Atomic 4 you'll never get more than maybe 50 amps out of your alternator and that's only when you're at an elevated RPM and very depleted batteries (for shame!). Fully charged and at rest the batteries will get to around 12.8~13.0 volts and that's about it. I typically see between 10~15 amps charge current from my alternator, higher depending on my battery bank's State of Charge. My running engine accounts for at least 9 amps of that (ignition @3.4A, FWC pumps @4A, fuel pump @1.6A).
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Last edited by ndutton; 06-12-2022 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 06-12-2022, 03:07 PM
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Yes,,,I understand your comment. Thanks...but...
The "system voltage"..i,e, the volts measured at
the battery terminals in theory is identical when
there is no item drawing..or producing current in the system.

The ONLY way that voltage as measured at the battery
is different from that as measured at....the radio...the
lights...the alternator ...etc is in the condition where you
have resistors in the connections. If you have no resistors,
then you can only have different voltage MEASUREMENTS is
if the wire sizes are so low that you may measure voltages
from one end to the other of the wire (or there are very poor
contacts). So.....if you purchase a "battery connect cable" of
normal size (large diameter) and connected it from the
alternator + output terminal DIRECT to the battery (or high
current capacity switch) there will be a very small voltage drop
(millivolt range) or change when measuring this voltage. The
large wire is a super low ohm value resistor. There is no
way that the voltage drop from the ends of that cable can be
higher that millivolt levels unless the current flowing is extreeemely
high....ohms law of course. So......in my opinion, there is
no worry about high coil or other accessories voltages as the
roughly 30-40 amp currrent MAXIMUM charging energy is
being connected to a thick, normal "battery cable".I will
add a ballast resistor anyway
given your experience with coil
failures as an insurance item (why not?) but still fail to understand
how the coil voltage can exceed the battery voltage given the
proper wire terminations are used and large wire is used .

What am I missing?
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Old 06-12-2022, 03:32 PM
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First, you don't know yet what your alternator output voltage is so let's not get ahead of ourselves. You might not even need a ballast resistor.

Second, voltage drop can be significant due to insufficient wire gauge and circuit length. Typically boat wiring, especially old boat wiring, is a hot mess.

Third, think of a battery as a bucket of water filled and drained through a single hole at the bottom. It takes more pressure to push water into the bucket than the static pressure at the hole. If the pressure was the same the bucket would not fill, if it's less the bucket would drain. In this analogy, pressure = volts.
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Old 06-12-2022, 03:57 PM
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Yes.....to your comments.

As you state..wires have to be "good". A battery
cable from the alternator is "very good" So the
voltage as measured at the alternator will
be extremely close to battery voltage. The poor condition
of miscellaneous wires and connections to accessories
can never cause a voltage rise....only a drop.

We can debate all day whether the "pressure" in your
bucket analogy is high enough to raise the voltage
of two, 100 amp hour batteries connected in parallel
to levels of almost 15 volts.

thanks for all your suggestions!
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Old 06-12-2022, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigoledave View Post
We can debate all day whether the "pressure" in your
bucket analogy is high enough to raise the voltage
of two, 100 amp hour batteries connected in parallel
to levels of almost 15 volts.

thanks for all your suggestions!
No need to debate, I have seen it happen more than once. With full batteries you very much can exceed 15 volts. As a matter of fact, if I had wet batteries and kicked off an equalization cycle I would get to around 15.5-16 volts.
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  #68   IP: 24.19.226.68
Old 06-14-2022, 05:21 PM
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more info from the vendor---output voltage

"...Greetings....quick question on the alternator I purchased. Do you have any
specifications from the manufacturer regarding the maximum OUTPUT VOLTAGE
these units should have? I have heard that SOMETIMES, this exact alternator
MAY put out "too high" of a voltage. Any comments appreciated. Also do you
have any actual INSTRUCTIONS for hooking this up? Mine came with just
a small card. Thank you!!!!!!,.."

answer receivesd:

"...New message from: forklift-pro (2,109RED_STAR Star)
Regulator set point is 14.2 volts. The alternator is a one wire self excited unit. Hook up is just the Battery output post on alternator to positive terminal of battery and a good ground to the frame of alternator either by the mounting bracket or a ground wire to the tab with screw on the side of the alternator.
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Old 06-19-2022, 01:35 AM
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First test of new alternator

Ok..I finally got it running today.

It is wired in the simple "one wire" method. I have a
thick (6 ga?) wire connecting to the "bat' large terminal.
Ground is by the mounting bolts AND a short wire from
a ground terminal on the case of the alternator to the A4 block.
Waaay less wires and connectors than my old alternator/seperate
voltage regulator! (Great!)

I first tried using my old belt but since the slot in the versioning
bracket was very near the end I ordered a one inch shorter belt.
NO mods to anything was required and I was able to use all stock
parts.

I started it up and it took a second or so to see the ammeter make
a bigmove of about 30 amps. I had my battery switch on "all" and
both batteries I knew were not charged fully. I have two digital
voltmeters looking at system voltages. Charge voltage went up to
exactly 14.2 volts after running the engine at maybe 2k rpm for
3-4 minutes. I never saw the voltage ever rise above exactly 14,2 v.

So..all is good...but different than my old twp part charging system.
In the old system, charge voltage was never over I think 13.5 volts...
and the ammeter would drop down to a value of 2-5 amps pretty
quickly. With this NEW alternator, the voltage rises to 14.2..and
the charge CURRENT is staying up in the 15 amp range in my
brief first test. I am thinking that both batteries were "low"
or the new alternator just has a very different method of reducing
current than the old style components.

So....it all works....the charge VOLTAGE is not "too high" and I
am puzzled a bit about how the current is managed. Like I
mentioned in a previous post, with my "thick" wire connections,
I am convinced my battery voltages are nearly identical to the
voltage measured at the alternator output as well as anywhere
in my ignition system.

Hope this was informative...
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Old 06-20-2022, 12:49 PM
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Current is not managed in your configuration, the alternator supplies 14.2 volts if it can and anything connected to it uses whatever current it will at that voltage.
Very few regulators actually manage current, most of the "smart" regulators are using various proxies for output. Wakespeed is the one current manufacturer that actually directly manages output current.
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