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  #51   IP: 71.176.201.17
Old 07-09-2012, 05:02 PM
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First, 1/4" ID sounds too small to me to begin with. Even if it's not, I would think it's too easily prone to being clogged by marine growth or sediment.

My boat had a similarly small raw water intake - I think it was about 1/2" pipe nipple. I replaced the entire through-hull setup with a brand new Groco 3/4" mushroom through-hull and a through-bolted adapter flange.

See the following excellent "how to" articles - these are what I followed in replacing mine:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_thruhulls
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  #52   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 07-09-2012, 09:17 PM
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Yes, the drawback with upsizing, other than throwing away perfectly good fittings, is that new through-hulls would not fit the old countersunk holes for the old flush fittings. I'd have to patch the holes and re-drill (and incidentally, no longer have flush fittings). Not to mention cutting huge holes in the liner just to be able to drill holes for the flange. (Although I suppose that I could drill them in a completely different place.) And my simple bolt-on upgrade turns into another month on the hard. I seem to be leaning toward upgrading the drains to flange-fittings but leaving the intakes for another season.

I guess what I'm looking for is any specific instance where the old stock 1/2-inch through-hulls proved inadequate for the A4.
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  #53   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 07-10-2012, 09:33 AM
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toddster...keep in mind the inlet and outlet for the water pump is a 3/8" NPT fitting, so that is usually the restriction point. I changed every brass fitting over to cast instead of machined and put 5/8" hose everywhere on the raw side to improve flow, but the water pump is still the restriction.

I have 4 thru-hulls in my boat..some were pipe nipples glassed right into the hull and some were real 'thru-hull' fittings, like the 1/2" bronze scoop engine intake. I replaced the two pipe nipples (they were flush, now they aren't, but it's a cruising boat!) and left the two other fittings (one being engine intake). The 1/2" marelon seacock accepted a 5/8" marelon hose barb. You have a hull liner down where the thru-hulls go?

I understand your issue with the countersunk holes..can't you find marleon fittings that are flush? - check this link - http://www.forespar.com/boat-marine-...hru-hull.shtml

When installing new seacocks, you'll need a sealer of some sort, since the threads are not tapered like pipe threads. I used the white thread dope straight out of the Lowe's plumbing section and it worked fine, but it is messy.

Make sure you've read MaineSail's articles if you need a refresher.
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Last edited by sastanley; 07-10-2012 at 09:43 AM.
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  #54   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 07-10-2012, 01:16 PM
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One could buy new flush fittings, but the heads would not be the same size as the old ones. I'd still need to glass over the old holes, drill new holes, and countersink them... with tools that I don't have.

The through-hulls are accessed by going into a locker, then sometimes opening another hatch to a concealed bilge, and then reaching sideways... If the boat were loaded for cruising, you'd have to shift gear every time you started the engine or used the toilet. Unless you just left everything open all season.

If I were to go for wholesale relocation of the through-hulls, I'd look at arranging things so that the valve stems exited through the sides of lockers. That way you could operate them without opening or moving anything. Perhaps in recessed boxes, like the engine control panel. Somehow, I doubt that I'll ever have that much time on my hands...
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  #55   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 07-11-2012, 11:26 PM
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Just Bragging A Little

Since it came up elsewhere, I recently finished re-wiring the whole boat. (Just a few details to finish up here and there.) The main thing was to build adequate main AC and DC panels where there previously were none, and to build some cabinetry to get them into the main cabin. I got really tired of crawling down into the sail locker to try to sort out the old rats nest of wires. I think the nav station is about finished in this pic, except for a few bits of fiddly trim. Note LED strip lighting behind a little hardwood valence strip in front of the panels. Separate dimmers for white lights and red night lights.



I had planned to go with the new red (+) yellow (-) scheme, but the spool of cable that I ordered didn't come that way and I didn't want to wait two weeks for a replacement. Also, the device manufacturers seem to use all kinds of different schemes, including some yellow (+) and some black (+) and some yellow (signal). So I just tried to label everything clearly. Also, those adhesive-backed cable tie supports started falling off on the first hot day. I've since replaced them with screw-on cable clamps, but since I couldn't screw them into the hull, the cable routing was a bit more restricted.

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  #56   IP: 74.108.24.222
Old 07-12-2012, 01:13 AM
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Damn nice work. My boat will never look that good, at least not while I own it. I just don't have the skills.
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  #57   IP: 8.19.13.19
Old 07-12-2012, 11:07 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Toddster
Here's what I did to support wires when I didn't want to make a hole.
Stretch the wire and support it with tape maybe at 1 foot intervals. Secure the wire with blobs of silicone sealer and let dry overnight. Next day remove the tape.

TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 07-12-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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  #58   IP: 68.56.139.11
Old 07-12-2012, 10:16 PM
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Todd, is that a voltage meter in that panel? What brand is it?

I had one that looks like that. Actually I had 3 that look like that. They all broke within a year. They disappeared from the West catalog.

I have a house use ammeter, and the voltage meter in a similar panel. Not quite as well made and pretty though.
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  #59   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 07-13-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Todd, is that a voltage meter in that panel? What brand is it?

I had one that looks like that. Actually I had 3 that look like that. They all broke within a year. They disappeared from the West catalog.

I have a house use ammeter, and the voltage meter in a similar panel. Not quite as well made and pretty though.
Those are both Blue Sea gauges. The volt meter is at least 10 years old. The ammeter is new. They both fit the same cut-out and bolt pattern.
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  #60   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 07-24-2012, 10:24 PM
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Update: Beats working.

Just an update on various issues, since it beats working on reports, and I'm too tired to grind the bottom any more tonight

Still no new through-hulls. According to UPS they were destroyed in a train wreck last week, somewhere in Montana. But they didn't tell anybody because they wanted to be sure.
Ain't the internet great? I googled it and found pics. They're in there somewhere:


Seems like I've been grinding on the hull for months! It went from green, to red, to blue, and now it's almost all white! Not far to go, but I can only keep it up for a couple of hours at a time.

Through some mental lapse, I failed to take detailed pictures, but as I sanded away the old bottom paint, clues to past injuries emerged. As noted above, the shaft, cutless bearing, and prop appear to have been replaced with mismatched stuff at some point in the past. I'm guessing the rudder must be second-generation too. The trailing edge of the keel was a bit jagged, but it turns out that the aft 6 - 8 inches of the keel was really beat up and filled with lots of bondo-like stuff. Enough bondo fell out of the trailing edge to make several shark-bite divots appear. This happened a long time ago, because it was under many layers of red ablative bottom paint, but on top of the original hard blue paint. Anyway, I've ground it down to laminate, wrapped some cloth around the trailing edge and have been filling and fairing with cloth and west system stuff. A couple more rounds to go, I think.

So, the boat backed into something? Maybe it dragged anchor and went into the rocks stern-first?

New shaft, prop and bearing waiting on the bench. I won't mess with it until the inter protect 2000 and the new bottom paint are on.

Also, as long as I was into new tanks, and re-routing the FWC system, I went ahead with pressurized water and a new water heater. It will fit just behind the bulkhead that the FWC will be mounted on. So does adding the extra heat exchanger into the system have any noticeable effect on engine cooling? I'm changing so many variables that I'll never know.

Last edited by toddster; 07-24-2012 at 10:33 PM.
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  #61   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 08-14-2012, 03:02 PM
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Shafted Again!

Argh. It turns out the new shaft keyway doesn't match the keyway on the engine coupler. I could probably make it fit, with the smaller keystock, but... Guess I'll order up a new split coupler. And so it goe$.

As long as I'm waiting for more part$, it seems like a good idea to replace the shaft log hose, and throw a couple more clamps on there too, if they'll fit.



However, I am not having any luck finding any in this size. The smallest hose I can find on line is 1-1/2 inch ID. The log is 1-3/8 and the stuffing box is 1-3/16. Seems like 1-1/4 ID hose would be the best match. Anybody got a handle on such an animal?

I think I'd more inclined to re-use the old piece than to try to squeeze down a piece that's too big.
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  #62   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 08-14-2012, 03:12 PM
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toddster...I built up my shaft log to the bigger stuffing box..it is much beefier. I know I know, more time & $$...but that is a few layers of glass & some West System..you are already proficient with that. I seem to recall as a youngster there were lots of 'chunks' missing out of the back of the keel..years of bottom paint will hold anything together!

Here is a link to the shaft log business...
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...?t=4044&page=8

Things with the shaft log start about #186, but you can see the built up repair in #264. Then the nice fancy new thick hose fits real nice. As you'll see the "while I am here" rear-seal replacement ended up being just as big of a nightmare!
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  #63   IP: 68.56.139.11
Old 08-15-2012, 09:29 PM
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That hose for the stuffing box is not ordinary hose. I found mine from Buck Algonquin. Look around, ask around, people know what you need.
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  #64   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 08-16-2012, 02:36 PM
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Yeah, I know. I suspect this previous piece is 1-1/2 inch stuff that someone forced closed with the hose clamps. Nobody makes smaller any more. Same story I got everywhere on the west coast when I went to get a new shaft. "Nobody makes them that small anymore."

Yeah, I'm pretty much buying a whole new boat, piece by piece, to fit my new propeller

Anyway, waiting for parts. Waiting for epoxy to cure so I can prep the sides for paint. Screw it. I'm loading up the hobie and going sailing for the rest of the day.
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  #65   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 08-18-2012, 10:53 PM
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Exclamation Now I'm In Hot Water. Or am I?

Help me Afourians for I have transgressed... and I am too tired to trust my reasoning on this. Yea, though the blessed Afourian is destined to be smudged with grease, and with oil, and even with questionable fishy-smelling substances from the bilge, all the days of his voyage... Yet I in my hubris imagined what a fine thing it would be to have hot showers on board. Verily did I purchase a Seward water heater. But Lo! This square object almost but did not quite fit into the boat-shaped locker next to the engine, where I had planned to install it. Fear not! I thought... it will simply have to go into the voluminous lazarette, even though that will add yet more weight to the port side of the boat.

Now today, I was laying in the lazarette, doubled over with abdominal cramps from working in these strange and unnatural positions, having tabbed in a support for the heater, pulled cable, and all but finished the installation. I had no choice but to actually think for a time, while waiting for the cramps to subside.

As it stands, the heat exchanger inside the water heater is now at least several inches above the FWC heat exchanger. Possibly even as much as a foot (I don't know how the H/E is arranged inside the case.) Am I going to now have to relocate the FWC heat exchanger out to the lazarette, to keep the coolant cap at the highest point in the system? Or could I get by with some sort of auxiliary fill cap at the water heater and some sort of bypass valve in the engine compartment?

It wouldn't be all that difficult to move the exchanger out there - just two more hoses to run. But not very convenient to add coolant. Rats! That locker on the starboard side was just perfect, but the darned thing wouldn't fit in.
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  #66   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 08-19-2012, 04:15 AM
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Header tank

This happens all the time. The solution is a header tank mounted at the highest point in fresh water side of the system.
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You can have one custom made (I did)
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or buy one ready made
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When choosing a location for the header tank consider good fill access to the top, route the hoses in a continuous upflow direction so air naturally finds its way there. If such routing cannot be done and there's an unavoidable air trap add a bleed valve to purge the air easily.
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-19-2012 at 09:24 AM.
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  #67   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 08-19-2012, 01:41 PM
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Ah. Interesting. Thanks Neil. So there is actually an off-the-shelf solution. I wonder what would be the effect on the old filler cap at the FWC H/E? Seems like a potential for constant coolant leaks.

Coincidentally, your schematic diagram looks almost exactly like the actual physical layout of my system, except my (horizontal) H/E is currently sandwiched between the port side of the engine and the bulkhead. (A bulkhead and the exhaust standpipe are in between the engine and the water heater.) I was going to move it to the starboard side bulkhead, where there is more room, and on the same side as the water pumps, as per your diagram. Had the water heater fit on the back side of that starboard bulkhead, most of the hose runs could have been shortened up to about 1-foot or so.

Hmm... I suppose the heater might fit if I shucked off the outer casing and wrapped it in soft insulation instead. Good thing I didn't think of that at the time

Right now, it looks like buying a little more hose and putting the H/E itself next to the water heater would be the cheapest option.
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  #68   IP: 24.152.131.155
Old 08-19-2012, 03:42 PM
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IF
you decide to go the header tank route, replace the existing HX cap with one of higher pressure, like 12- 15 lbs. and use a recovery style low-to-zero pressure cap on the header tank. That will effectively seal off the HX making it leak free and allow the header tank and recovery system to work properly.
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-19-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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  #69   IP: 71.54.207.52
Old 08-19-2012, 04:35 PM
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OK. I'm going back to painting for a couple of days and let that one stew. At least the end is in sight of most of these jobs.

Bah. Bilge-pump through-hull just snapped off when I bumped it with the sander. Why can't all the "can't launch without" parts all break at the same time so I can get them ordered in time?
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:16 AM
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toddster...because it is a boat that's why.

At least it broke off now and not in the middle of some river somewhere during a storm, while you are pumping rain water out of the bilge.

So Neil, while we are on this subject of teh FWC...my HX & low pressure cap seem to push fluid to my overflow bottle just fine, but it never sucks it back in..seems like a one-way road.. the top of the HX & the top of the overflow bottle are at roughly the same height. Isn't is supposed to pull the antifreeze back in when it cools off?
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:28 AM
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You are correct Shawn, the coolant should be drawn back in when the system cools. Small differences in recovery bottle height should not matter. Some thoughts:
  • Could be the pressure cap is either not a recovery type or the recovery portion of the cap valve is stuck closed. It should open with very little vacuum.
  • Any kink or restriction in the overflow hose? It has to work under pressure and vacuum and the two are very different in magnitude.
  • Is the overflow reservoir vent obstructed in any way (usually a hole in the cap)?
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:42 AM
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Thumbs up

I have the white Sendure bottle, the top of the bottle has a 2nd nipple, I assume for venting, so it is open.

One of the things I did was make the run between HX & overflow bottle as short as possible..no kinks in the clear tubing, and I used real hose clamps not those spring loaded things..the run is about 10" long.

Maybe the cap is the issue. Guess I'll have to research how those work & which one I have. I did install the little gasket in the top of the cap per instructions that Sendure supplied with the overflow bottle.

This little anamoly came to light this weekend when I shut the engine down after a hard run without the normal idle cooling period..the coolant temp went thru the roof and half filled the recovery tank..(among other things which involved mopping up 2 quarts of antifreeze from the bilge, but we won't go there just now and pollute toddster's thread any further...)
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Old 08-21-2012, 02:02 AM
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To suck fluid back from the expansion tank, the cap has to have two different spring-loaded valves. The cap on my (old, old) sendure tank only has one. It doesn't draw fluid back.
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:16 PM
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starter / ignition switch woes

Now I'm stumped. Trying to get the motor recommissioned, after sitting on the hard for six months. I replaced all of the PO's wiring with new stuff, except I didn't touch the engine wiring until today. I don't know why it ever worked but it gave me the willies. Now it's wired correctly, and it doesn't work!!!

Right now it's wired as per the moyer wiring diagram. However, as soon as the switch is turned to "on" the engine starts cranking. Multimeter shows continuity between the battery and solenoid wires. So why doesn't it crank as soon as the battery switch is turned on? Multimeter shows that the switch is operating correctly. Energizing the coil makes the engine crank? ***?

Previously, it worked, but the "battery" wire just went to the ammeter. There was a loose hot jumper that didn't go to anything. An extra 14 ga. wire went from the "battery" terminal of the ignition switch back to the house panel . But it worked that way??? Next step, I could try to recreate that, but... jeez.

Last edited by toddster; 09-15-2012 at 08:24 PM. Reason: Noticed more buggery...
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:28 PM
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Smile oh!

First, lets get this part straight....I am not an electrical dude at all....that said, sounds like you are directly wired to starter from the battery switch. Right now you turn on power activating the solenoid and turning over the engine. Double check wiring diagram from ignition to starter and battery to starter. Could be something as simple as a wire on the wrong side of the ignition switch. If you changed a switch from a key to pull type it's also easy to make a mistake. Neil Dutton or Hanley are pretty sharp on this. Not sure if they are around this weekend.

It is in the wiring though.
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