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Old 10-22-2020, 02:59 PM
TimBSmith TimBSmith is offline
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Starting new thread for my hot section rebuild guidance on final approach..

Update on hot section replacement...questions regarding doping/tightening pipes..


Al, John, others that have replied here or DM on longer thread, restarting here to focus. And to the long lineage of thread contributors on exhaust and hot side rebuilds. Thank you.

Regular monitoring of riser hot section and injection point seems important. Touchless temperature checks/inspection and the role of back pressure as a diagnostic tool is interesting, and I will take more time with it when less critical issues are in front of me.

Again thank you all for assist so far.....newbie help on final approach please...

I have read above and elsewhere here no thread dope on pipes, if anything some high temp anti seize...reconfirming this is the best practice. I tested some high temp pipe dope. Strangely all of the thick dope seems to scrape right out of the threads and end up out of the thread interface all together.

Guidance for tightening pipe assembly... I have read that others here simply snug the pipes hand tight. In other posts the tightening process is not covered. Is there a good rule of thumb?

Technician at the pipe and plumbing supply advised snug by hand then get 180 turn with pipe wrench. When I dry fit, this does not result in the pipe alignment I need. Proposing approach where I snug then turn straight connects then snug and tighten my street L and regular L at flange for the angular alignment I need.

Moyer Flange torque requirements? I have seen warnings about using too much force and pulling threads. Thought I read 35lb somewhere but cannot find thread.

Has anyone used 316/316L stainless nipple with the Moyer flange or SS nipple or connector to Moyer water injector? Have you noticed accelerated galvanic corrosion? Seems like all conditions met especially with the flange and environment. I have both.

I am planning to provide some additional surface rust protection using high temperature primer. For those that have used BBQ paint or other high temp surface protection 1) did you prepare the surface of the pipe or just spray, 2) did you notice any smell in the boat after curing? Wife very chemical sensitive. 3) any other pointers? I have high temperature header spray paint and will cure by baking twice at 400F for 30 min.

I have been reviewing many threads...further thread list to be compiled.

Progress slow/steady here link below, is where I am at now... about to do final fitting and tightening welcome any helpful hints or lessons learned, favorite threads. I will do all tightening at bench then install and fine tune before seating flange/hoses. My Moyer water injection is 1 5/8 my waterlift intake is 1 1/2" using 1 5/8" hose (as did PO) and adding double clamping.

Hot Section and Injection Point Old/New
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xEEeLfoF9gK4ZMkG6

Here is what schedule 80 connector looks like compared to schedule 40 my PO used. The mass and dimensions are dramatically different...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/zhrN3nsmcqxxnbWM6

Reflected a lot on schedule 40 and schedule 80 as well as black pipe vs. SS 316/316L. Using schedule 40 black pipe to re-create PO 10 year old build. Bought 316 SS flange gap nipple and gap nipple for water injector connector (my/common failure points), resolving sealing and galvanic corrosion questions may still use them. Making time to revisit long term solution. That discussion another post.

Here is the before and after of the flange seating area. I learned a great deal about importance of preparing the seating area. I have come to believe that part of the flange leak problem was a gasket buildup on the seating area that led to several high and hard to seal hot spots. I believe the PO or his technician passed on the opportunity to clean the flange seat where most difficult, where the gasket seems carbonized and fused.

Part of earlier generation gasket fused solid to seating area, last gasket laid over this...pleased with cleanup result thanks to ball peen hammer, picking tools, and Dremel wire brush lowest setting/gentle..between actual work and outreach..way..more..time..than I could imagine. Very confident with seating area and manifold material available for seating and operation.
Before
https://photos.app.goo.gl/3X4iRgPYA5eGkYeC6

After
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4XN1jwepzWx3qDYe7

Hot Spot and seating pattern seems to match these high spots. Gasket before removal. Note high spots and sealing trouble areas addressed with liquid gasket.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/totv6jCan5Qk481TA

Grateful. Stay well. Tim


p.s. Boston MA area members..
The folks at Metro Pipe in Watertown are outstanding. They have black pipe and 316 stainless.
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Last edited by TimBSmith; 10-22-2020 at 03:06 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBSmith View Post
...Has anyone used 316/316L stainless nipple with the Moyer flange or SS nipple or connector to Moyer water injector? Have you noticed accelerated galvanic corrosion?
I have both in my hot section. Although I can't easily inspect it due to the wrapping, it has been in operation since 2011 and has over 1800 hours on it without showing any signs of leakage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBSmith View Post
...I am planning to provide some additional surface rust protection using high temperature primer.
I am not sure that painting the SS parts is a good idea. Stainless rusts by a process called "Crevice Corrosion", which requires the absence of air to get started. Painting would seal off the surface, allowing saltwater to get under the paint at any scratch and begin corrosion.
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Old 10-23-2020, 07:52 PM
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Ed, I must have looked at your SS pipe build a dozen times...

Thank you for all of your contributions in the exhaust topic from riser build to materials, came across your signature more than a few times.

That is a good track record for your SS build. Please remind me did you use schedule 80/high pressure material? It is so massive. Did you brace the riser?

How do you monitor riser short of failure based diagnostic...Have you ever used the MMI flange exhaust pressure access bolt and pressure gauge at different RPM over time? What about infrared thermometer looking for cool, hot, or wet spots? Best preventive monitoring practice you suggest?

I had failures in three exhaust components a week after the engine was running. First, dry rot and pressure fracture at the stern connector for 1 5/8" wet marine exhaust. Nipple/gasket exhaust leak at flange, nipple failure at top of connector to water injector. All of these visible failure-based discoveries. Reflecting on cost effective way to stay ahead of this in future. If I had an exhaust pressure baseline at high rpm, that might help with preventive discovery, no?

Crevice corrosion. No paint got it. Hmm. Now I recall also reading an old discussion about wrapping stainless pipes in engine environment that said something similar. Do you use a more breathable wrap for your stack? The sticky wraps seem less breathable(more favorable to anaerobic condition) than the cloth wraps with no adhesive.

Here is my bench work today.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DiH5dSkXMhxkkTpq8
(Note, I bailed on high temp thread sealant and used high temp anti seize in 3 places. Gap nipple flange side (future recovery). Street L join to regular L because I don't like this angle or the lighter tightening pressure needed to achieve it. Then at the connector join to water injector (future recovery). For this build all schedule 40 black pipe using PO assembly plan. I like welded pipe approaches for best flow, I would like to learn and may fab something SS in the future or redesign a SS assembly with heavy common fittings and better flow. It seems like the one place rust is your friend(for several years) is fusing and sealing the hot stack and injector assembly.

Grateful for further guidance. Stay well, Tim
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Old 10-24-2020, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBSmith View Post
...Now I recall also reading an old discussion about wrapping stainless pipes in engine environment that said something similar. Do you use a more breathable wrap for your stack? The sticky wraps seem less breathable(more favorable to anaerobic condition) than the cloth wraps with no adhesive...
Yes, I used the cloth/fiberglass wrap that MMI sells. It is held in place with some thin stainless straps.


As for Sch 40 vs 80, I used sch 40. I had some worry at first, but the results have been great. Because we are not talking about high pressures here, sch 80 is probably unnecessary in SS, especially for the couplings. For the pipes and nipples, its maybe another story. In sch 40 pipe, the weakest area is at the threads, as they penetrate through a significant amount of the pipe's wall thickness. All of sch 80's extra thickness goes to increasing the wall thickness at the threads.

For example (and I'm making up these numbers), if threads cut halfway through on sch 40, and sch 80 is twice as thick as sch 40, then sch 80 has three times the wall thickness at the threads!
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:34 AM
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Do not go cheap on the wrap. I did that ONCE and the result was unpleasant. The wrap emitted a very unpleasant odour that did not diminish appreciably with time. Finally my daughter said - "That wrap has got to go!"

Ripped it off and replaced with the good stuff and was much happier.

The bad wrap has a well-deserved bad rap...

Peter
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:16 PM
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FYI, the ABYC Exhaust Systems Standards, Article P-1 found in the Standards category on this forum is specific about hot (dry) section materials.

Section 1.6.3 found on the 4th page of the pdf (numbered page 2):
Quote:
1.6.3 Pipe Size - Threaded pipe and fittings for the engine exhaust(s) should be at least schedule 80 pipe or equivalent.
In support of Edward's comment please note that the quote is specific to threaded pipe and fittings. Taking a position of what they didn't say is just as important as what they did, formed and/or welded systems (not threaded) would not fall under the schedule 80 requirement.
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Old 10-24-2020, 01:01 PM
TimBSmith TimBSmith is offline
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Wrap and ABYC ....

Thank you Ed, Peter, Neil...

I went with the MMI wrap.

Now that I know the scale of schedule 80 black and SS I can redesign for either threaded common fittings or something welded. Either way I want better higher pressure flow than my street L and regular L provide at the top. I am going to be curious to see how much heat is produced there at sustained higher RPM. Also, I was surprised by the amount of backsplash at the injection point, corrosion traveled up the connector part way up the longer gap nipple. I suspect this produces back pressure on hot gases coming down off of the top of the riser.

ABYC. Since the mid 90's my boat has had 4 surveys. Assuming the past 4 owners have carried on the tradition of schedule 40 pipe, never once is this critical assembly mentioned in the surveyor's notes. Is this common? I don't care what the survey says, I care about running a reliable and safe boat, wonder how this assembly gets overlooked. The hull and deck routinely gets a tap/sounding test, maybe the hot exhaust should too. After what I experienced(and so many of you have shared) I know a lot more about signs and sounds of failure to look for.

Off to the boat to bolt my new hot exhaust in...can anyone advise on MMI flange bolt torque?

Grateful. Stay well. Tim
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Old 10-24-2020, 01:30 PM
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Engine surveys are not usually included but are often recommended in general boat survey boilerplate. Also, it is impossible to distinguish sch40 from sch 80 pipe from the outside without visible markings which are obliterated the first time the exhaust heats up to 500° and beyond.
Name:  SS exhast hot pipe sch80.jpg
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As for thread sealant, I don't see the downside. Anything to help keep exhaust fumes out of the cabin.
Name:  Thread sealant.jpg
Views: 134
Size:  110.9 KBName:  Thread sealant specifications.jpg
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:23 PM
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...can anyone advise on MMI flange bolt torque?
Tim-
I would recommend 30-35 lbs
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Old 10-26-2020, 11:44 AM
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I just redid my hot section for the second time and have a few things to add that could help others. Also have some questions from problems I ran into.

Things I did right the 2nd time

1) I struggled for a long time to reuse the exhaust flange for the first rebuild. The second time I decided to just buy a new one. I didn't waste all that time trying to remove the nipple from the flange, and I was confident the face was flat and would seal properly. I was able to re used the water injection nipple. It came out of the old Iron elbow without much fuss.

2) The second time I ordered the Black iron Schedule 40 pipe from McMaster Carr. I found this pipe to be of much higher quality than the pipe I got from Home depot the first time. Cleaner, the threads married up easier, and its made in the US. I would have done SS pipe, but couldn't justify the cost after just spending a lot to buy a new manifold.

3) The second time I used exhaust wrap from Moyer. It was much nicer than the stuff I got the first time. I also used the High Temp paint they sell. It helped a lot from a looks standpoint. But also should help with not getting shards of fiberglass anytime i'm working around the exhaust. Plan for 2 days to install it. You're supposed to wet it and then let it dry before painting it.

4) Definitely switch to the Manifold Flange Studs if you can. Not only do you get the benefit of a stud over a bolt, but it makes it much easier to get the hot section on because you just have to slide it onto the studs. Easily done in comparison to having to hold the exhaust in place with one hand and getting the bolts to line up and thread with the other.

Lessons Learned

1) Don't wrap the pipe until you've installed and tested it. I needed to change the alignment of the pipes slightly to fit in place.

2) If you need to adjust the alignment of the pipe, don't loosen it. Find a way to tighten it to get it right. I loosened one fitting about 1/3rd of a turn. It caused a leak. I had to remove the whole thing, and tighten it back past the original point, and then keep going about another 3rd of a turn to get the pipes to fit. 2 Large pipe wrenches were a must for me.

3) The nuts on the exhaust flange studs are really hard to get to with my setup. The next time I remake the exhaust, I'll just a longer nipple at the start. That'll keep the first elbow further from the flange and allow me to get a socket wrench in there for proper torquing.

4) Keep you're old exhaust setup, it would have been nice to have that at home for reference so I could build the new one without pulling the current hot section.
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Old 10-27-2020, 12:52 AM
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Thank you Neil, Road, Cferg update....

First, please share a laugh with this newbie..
This is what it looks like when you try to mount a thermostat gasket on a flange instead of a flange gasket. I was so pleased to get it onto the bolts clean only to finally admit....that..cannot be right...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oBXbcrc2NX7NmgUMA

Many tries with the flange gasket. A couple iterations stepping back and starting over, using PB blast and Break Cleaner to keep surfaces clean. Just really awkward to adjust pipe shape, then balance and match flange up and get bolts started. Seemed like bottom bolt first is the way to go.

I wore my trusty knee pads, I laid down padding on the across engine head and took off all the distributor wires from the plugs. All this to lay across the engine more comfortably and patiently, without wrecking the ignition system.

I installed the water hose on manifold first. That was a mistake. I took it back off to have max room for gasket mount and lining up flange bolts.

Having the wet side water injector and hose resting loosely in the water lift muffler intake helped create a balance point to shift and pivot the whole assembly around when needed. I stopped to reshape the pipes for final alignment a couple of times. The flange and street L both needed a couple nudges.

Mounted correctly here.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Zc7bDcqCdDYJtNT8A
https://photos.app.goo.gl/G28CExpxGuEBQRmo6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZdBfiV2Jk6jzusou6

First startup and 7 minute run in nearly 2 weeks here. I have not worked on slow or fast idle yet.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/14ktQrC5iNwHTCXK9
There are two leaks. One at flange gasket, gap nipple/flange. One small water drop on top of connector to water injector.

Tightened flange bolts after running her a little bit. Last short run looked like this.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vyjsYXNjrK95HiQm9

I do not think the flange and nipple issue is resolved and I know the leak at top of connector still there.

Plan for tomorrow...welcome suggestions.
1) Buy a thinner margin 9/16 socket or crowfoot to check torque on bolts. Order the studs from Moyer. Order another gasket in case I need to double up.

2) Try to get a pipe wrench on the gap nipple at flange, get a tightening turn if possible. I tightened the other end of the nipple into the regular L in a vice on the bench, maybe I can borrow some space.

3) Try to get a pipe wrench on the gap nipple above the connector to the water injector. See if I can get tighter(though this connector was tightened well on the vice at the bench. (This is also where the wet side failed in the prior assembly). Water injector back spray may be part of the price I am paying for such a nasty hot exhaust turn up top, where I suspect there is some backflow at higher rpm if gases increase velocity while having overall volume squeezed into narrower jets to make the turn.

4) Be mentally prepared to remove entire assembly and come up with a better doping and tightening plan. Execute plan, reinstall.

Suggestions welcomed.


Another look at initial leaks
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Dij2XUxWihW5m5Sy6


Wet Exhaust Discharge Check
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HNXDqyMYN14eJwj39

Temperature Checks First Run
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eJfPp2nSabaatXVT6

Welcome any impressions or observations.

Grateful for all the help so far both active and historical threads.

Stay well. Tim
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Old 10-27-2020, 01:31 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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TBS:
Here's what I did when I replaced my hot section. I used a union immediately after the manifold so I could easily adjust the nipples in the hot section plumbing. Like this: flange, short nipple, 1/2 of the union. This assembly was bolted onto the manifold. The other 1/2 of the union was on the rest of the hot section. This made it easy to finger tighten the union then figure out where and how the various nipples and other plumbing needed to be adjusted for perfect fit. Then loosen the union, make the adjustments, then put back in place, finger tighten the union to see if further change was necessary. keep at it until I got the hot section how I wanted it then tightened the union with a wrench.

ex TRUE GRIT

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Old 10-27-2020, 01:13 PM
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I like the idea of the union. Wish I had done that.

In my situation, there was no chance I could tighten, or adjust the angles of the pipes when they were installed on the boat. To much boat yoga. It was significantly easier to remove the whole assembly and get it on the dock and use 2 pipe wrenches to do the work. Having studs really helps out. I was able to get a pipe wrench to work well on the exhaust flange, I didn't have access to a vise.

Instead of removing the exhaust hose off of the water injection nipple, I remove to hose from the water lift muffler. It works a lot better for me.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:45 PM
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Quick update as I was detoured into winterizing by early storm...

Regret delayed update....we had a storm in October that generated a lot more snow than expected and jump started my winterization plan. First time I have built a frame and structure in support of winter work on the boat..

Exhaust update.

I was able to get a couple of turns on the nipple at the flange and the connector at the water injection fitting. Initial results are positive. i still need to give the engine a good running session to see if I have solved the leaks. I have not wrapped anything yet.

Bought this used small and narrow pipe wrench that is actually matte dark military green metal and has the best gripping teeth I could hope for. It is the sole reason I was able to get a couple of turns on the nipple and connector.

I am hoping weather will permit another long engine run so I can wrap up the exhaust system journey before final winterization. Thankful for all the help here. Will post again on final test. Stay well. Happy Thanksgiving.
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