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  #1   IP: 69.233.255.60
Old 06-02-2012, 09:33 PM
rscaej rscaej is offline
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Steel frozen Atomic 4

All,

I recently purchased a 1962 Pearson Trit on in great shape, good sails and a frozen Atomic 4.Hello The boat took on a little seawater due to a packing glands leak. Everything else has been remedied but the engine. I have a Tohatsu 6 HP long shaft 4 stroke but that mean I need an outboard mount on the transom. I am not exactly sure where to mount it, and it adds to my length with the engine tilted up. I have seen some used diesels for around 2500 but don't know the skill set required to swap an engine by myself. I can do it easily on land in a car, but this is neither. I was given an estimate of $10K plus to swap in a new one. I have seen James's Salty pictures but they do not show what he did with the back stay mount. I like the Pajaro installation. I believe I can do that one in the water.

A Plan, A Plan,

1) Seal up the rear lazarette bulkhead on both sides
2) Use cut out shape from my Columbia 22 mark on bottom where hole will be.
3) Beef up bottom of lazarette opening for an engine mount
4) Mark where top of lid must be cut out
5) Build lid teak reinforcement for lid area
6) Build Teak reinforcement for bottom hole
7) Make hatch cover for bottom hole to be fastened with bulldogs
8) Add tie spot for holding fuel tanks.
9) Make top cover
10) Oh boy, cut holes, first bottom, then lazarette opening
11) Dry fit engine.
12) Install teak reinforcements, epoxy and glass in.
13) Sea trial
14) Install lid
15) Adjust as necessary
16) Paint

Comments?

Continued

I still am not clear on what I am going to do. The transom mount comes with a cost of moving to the next size slip up. I am in a 25, and the Triton, mine at least, is 28' 4". I am not sure when they went to 28" 6". The next size up is a 30' slip with a steep price increase.

The lazarette solution I like because it easy to glass back up later. I studied James Baldwin's solutions for awhile. I do not like the tilt, I prefer the well option on the S/V Pajaro. Watertight the rear lazarette, beef up the mount location, build a box and a lid, then stowage for tanks. The largest size would be the a 6 HP 4-stroke. Now is this sufficient to meet my needs, don't know just yet. I like the cost, glass is cheap. I have already rebuilt the deck step plate on my Columbia 22, that I have some excess ply left over. Lastly I have a long shaft Tohatsu 6 HP 4 stroke, with exhaust through the prop. The major downfall is it noisy, not as noisy as a two stroke, but still an exposed noise source. I have had both on my Columbia 22. Here are some links which some of you may know of already.

http://atomvoyages.com/articles/impr...utboard-1.html
http://atomvoyages.com/articles/impr...utboard-1.html
http://albergsailboats.org/about-the...n-tritons.html

I have started the disassembly process of the Atomic 4. I removed the head, easy enough and found No. 2 cylinder full of orangish goop. Everything else looked fine. I cleaned out the goop filled the cylinders with Kroil. Three days later No. 2 is still full of Kroil and still will not turn.

I found several Atomic 4 listing on CL. One was running with lost of goodies, $2500, significant drive and removal process but interesting. Another seems to have disappeared for $1300 closer by. One was running but is now disassembled in several places for $1500. Lastly I found someone with several in various states willing to provide parts.

Whatever happens I am still removing the existing Atomic 4. Today I removed the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, carburetor, fuel pump, it looks electric, distributor, all linkages, starter, and the generator. It is a generator, not an alternator, I know the difference. The exhaust manifold connection to the exhaust line was, to stay the least an exhausting effort. The bolts are blind, rounded, and only accessible from my left hand side. I had to hammer a box car on the lower to get it to break, and break it did. Apparently I broke the flange with the hammer, and the whole section where the bolt went into the manifold just crushed in. Maybe the manifold could be welded back up, most likely replace will be the choice.

I messed with the flywheel for a while and gave up. Since it doesn't move I can not tap and turn using the starter access hole. I am going to have to jimmy up some type of puller, there isn't much space between the flywheel and the housing.

I am trying to remove as much as possible from the block before trying to remove it. Even then I don't know where I am going to move it too. I was told I have to grab the shaft with something or it will slide out. I am not smart about this and ask others how they did it. Would a pair of vise grips be sufficient?

My plan for now is to remove the engine, clean-up the area, fair and then bilge white paint it. Hopefully a solution will present itself that is agreeable. I am curious how much removing 300 lbs from the aft will affect the trim. Is it even noticeable?

There no valves on the cockpit drain through hulls. and a gate valve in line with the water feed to the engine. These will be on the to do list at the next haul out.

I purchased from Moyer Marine the oil removal fixture that fits in the oil pump out slot. I installed and connected it to a 6.9 liter hand pump from West Marine. The fixture worked pretty slick. I pumped out almost 6.9 litre of clear before I ever saw any black come out. I do not think this can be good. I disposed of the clear appropriately and then came back and pumped out about 3 more litres of black. The funny thing was I did not see any orange as I found in No. 2 cylinder. The only other orange I have found has been in the water jacket as expected.

Oh yeah, No. 2 is still full of Kroil 5 days later.

rscaej
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  #2   IP: 74.14.182.94
Old 06-03-2012, 11:58 PM
Sony2000 Sony2000 is offline
 
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Hit the piston with a 3'' diameter piece of wood powered by a hammer. When its loose, stone the cylinder wall smooth.
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  #3   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 06-04-2012, 12:46 AM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Question

So would it be fair to say that your long term plan is to have an Atomic 4 back in the boat?
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  #4   IP: 199.173.225.33
Old 06-04-2012, 08:47 AM
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Please do NOT chop up your boat. You can find a used A4 that runs or get one from Moyer. Swapping the engine in and out can be tedious, but it isn't all that hard.
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:53 PM
Carl-T705 Carl-T705 is offline
 
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Try these, Get a rag and draw out the Kroil which is great sruff. Get a fine instrument like a feeler gauge or a sharp dental type tool and scrape around the edge of the piston to try and free all the gunk that has made a tight seal not allowing the kroil to penetrate.
Next get a hammer and a block of hardwood about 1"x1". Since the wrist pin for the piston runs fore and aft Tap {bang} on the left side of the piston and then the right side. What you are looking for is the slightest amount of movement or rocking of the piston. Sometimes squirting more kroil into the hole allows you to see the movement. The kroil will splash up a little when the piston breaks free.
This system has worked for me in the past, remember you don't want to beat the piston to death just strike on one side and then the other, it may take several treatments .
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  #6   IP: 71.253.241.145
Old 06-04-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sony2000 View Post
Hit the piston with a 3'' diameter piece of wood powered by a hammer.
The pistons in the A4 are way under 3 inch diameter. = 2 9/16"
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  #7   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 06-04-2012, 01:34 PM
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Paging Dave Neptune, paging Dave Neptune.

All other advice here seems pretty good too. Dave Neptune unfroze his engine 26 years ago, and has never had to pull the head since.

Oh, and welcome..I agree with joe_db. I'd rather try to unfreeze (or replace)my A-4 than do all that 'surgery' (hack & chop) to the transom of a boat with such graceful lines.
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  #8   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 06-04-2012, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rscaej View Post
All,

I recently purchased a 1962 Pearson Trit on in great shape, good sails and a frozen Atomic 4...
Paging Dave Neptune, paging Dave Neptune.

All other advice here seems pretty good too. Dave Neptune unfroze his engine 26 years ago, and has never had to pull the head since.

Oh, and welcome..I agree with joe_db. I'd rather try to unfreeze (or replace)my A-4 than do all that 'surgery' (hack & chop) to the transom of a boat with such graceful lines.
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - for sale - PM me if interested
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 (uh oh, two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
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  #9   IP: 199.173.225.33
Old 06-04-2012, 02:10 PM
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Also try mixing acetone and ATF fluid. I heard that can work wonders. Of course there is the old standby MMO soak.
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  #10   IP: 8.19.13.19
Old 06-04-2012, 03:27 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Back To The Outboard Idea For A Moment......

I used to own a Columbia 24 that had an outboard that mounted in a well in the lazarette. Here's a few issues to consider before you proceed:

(1) Is 6 HP enough to push your boat into the wind and swells in your area? My 6 HP barely did the job.
(2) Which leads to: Any outboard larger than 6 HP is almost too heavy to lift in and out of the well.
(3) Which leads to: You will most likely have to lift the outboard out of the well while you are sailing because: (a) Water will splash up into the power head - they don't start to well when they get soggy. You might be able to rig up some kind of a collar to prevent this but you'll have to install it every time you put put the engine in. (b) If you leave the outboard in the water while you are sailing there will be a lot of drag and sea weed catching potential.

So:
If you use the outboard to go into and out of the harbor or mooring it will probably work depending on your area. If you use your boat frequently or motor long distances an outboard won't be satisfactory.
Lifting the outboard in and out of the well is a pain. How's your back? Don't forget you will be doing this when the boat is rocking in the swell.
If the outboard needs maintenance or repair you simply take it home or to the shop. Easy to do

TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 06-04-2012 at 04:04 PM. Reason: can't spell my way out of a paper bag today!
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  #11   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 06-04-2012, 04:54 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Thumbs up Smack it first!!!!

rscaej, don't carve the boat yet! I used a number of pieces of 2x4 on end and used 2 hammers. I used a medium sized ball-peen and a "dead-blow" of which I purchased for the task and was well worth it!!! As stated above paralell the wrist pin and strike from one side of the block (over the piston) to the other and work on all the pistons a bit. The filling with penetrating oil is not messy until things start to break free. Once a piston starts to wiggle insert a rag under the block and the splashing will be controlled. Do the side to side smacks with a solid hammer like the medium ball-peen and then a big whack with the dead blow ~ next cyl etc. You can also remove the starter and apply preassure against the flywheel with a big screw driver and a block of wood for leverage and torque when striking with the dead blow, I did so with a bunch of bungies and overhead support. Best would be to have someone apply the preassure while you smack with the dead-blow. Apply the screwdriver torque in both directions. Once it get a bit of travel you can rock her back and forth until she'll spin.
Once you have gotten it loose clean out what dirt and rust you can with a shop vac and then spin on the starter while spraying a bit of into the cylinders.
Unless you have a broken ring or a really gouged cylinder she'll run and the rings will re-seat over time.
If you get her to spin we'll proceed. I did this a long time ago and my beastie still purrs like a kitten.

Dave Neptune
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  #12   IP: 68.56.139.11
Old 06-05-2012, 12:52 AM
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You will find a bias here. Imagine that. It is hard to be objective about Atomic Fours, or sailboats.

I had a columbia 22 with a well. I had a new 3.5 2 stroke nissan that came with it. I though that the well was a great idea. That motor was so loud though. It was right there in the cock pit and made me really want to sail.

Inboard engines are so much better then an out board. If you have to have an outboard, a well seems to be the best way to do it.

Everyone seems to have a different experience with the atomic four. people here seem to love this mighty engine, me too. I think that you may come to love it too. You are just getting acquainted. Give this engine some TLC and you will not regret it.

For reality. I dont know what you have into the boat, or what are planning to do. The inboard set up will have a lot more value then a well or bracket. This maybe important when you trade up to an Island Packet.

You will find good advice here and with Moyer Marine. Welcome to the family.
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  #13   IP: 173.20.99.40
Old 06-05-2012, 09:57 PM
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I would second John Cookson's point.

Also, I had something of an epiphany regarding James Baldwin's experience with his A-4, which he removed from his Triton back in the mid-1980s after his circumnavigation. After removing it, I believe he developed a workable system with an outboard with a storage locker in place of his A-4, which he found unreliable. He used a small solar panel for his minimal electrical needs.

My grand thought was this.... First, you have to go back in time to the mid-1980s. There was no Moyer Marine with all the aftermarket parts (at least not the sophisticated one we know today) and there wasn't an internet forum like this one where you could consult friendly experts on your engine. So what was even a seasoned sailor like James Baldwin to do with his old rusty A-4 that only ran intermittently way back when? He did what made sense to him -- he got rid of it and replaced it with something he could work and could get parts for if it broke down. My point is that just because it might have made sense for Capt. Baldwin to do what he did 25 years ago, it no longer makes sense for anyone to do that now. Anyway, that's it! Hope you enjoyed my wise thoughts! Good luck to you!
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  #14   IP: 69.233.255.60
Old 06-06-2012, 10:35 AM
rscaej rscaej is offline
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Smile Ta Da

Thank you Sailhog,

I have been searching for an argument to guide me. Your reasoning makes perfect sense. I have limited funds and time. I wanted to look for a best value solution. The outboard and well is for me the least cost and time in the short term. It requires the least amount of outside help. It also the noisiest, puts another "hole in the boat", and provides the least amount of power for the most amount of fuel.

I have found while mulling over a solution and removing the existing Atomic 4 what you have stated. I am keeping my eyes and ears open for a reasonable cost "running" Atomic 4 to swap out. Meanwhile i will try to rebuild the one I have in situ. I do not have a shop or hard to work on elsewhere.

Along the same vein 25 years ago there was not as much congestion. Several people have placed RADAR right next to radio and PFDs as a necessity.

Thanks again for the insight
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:14 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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One more point R\E the out board well: If you decide to go the out board route be sure the well is smaller than the out board power head. That way you will not be able to drop the engine into the water through the well. Guess how I (almost) found this out...........You can use a safety line but they're a hassle.

TRUE GRIT
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  #16   IP: 24.183.120.68
Old 06-07-2012, 08:12 AM
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Outboard surgery on an Alberg design would be a sin.

DON'T DO IT !!!

Fix the Atomic four. Do not wreck your boat. Please.

With all due respect ,

Charles
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:32 PM
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I did a search...cut and paste this into a google search;

Atomic 4 site:craigslist.org

It will search all of craigs list for atomic 4 no area restriction.

A bunch of them show in SFBay area.

Not sure how close that is.

You have to be careful, though. people use the term "rebuilt" pretty loosely.

I heard the phrase "aerosol rebuild" recently and it does sum it up nicely.

They wire brush it and spray-paint it and call it "rebuilt." A running takeout should cost no more than $500

one guy showed a receipt from 2001 and advertised his engine as rebuit and was asking like $2400!

I'm sorry but an 11 year old rebuild no longer qualifies as rebuilt!
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Last edited by Sloopdogg; 06-07-2012 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloopdogg View Post
one guy showed a receipt from 2001 and advertised his engine as rebuit and was asking like $2400!

I'm sorry but an 11 year old rebuild no longer qualifies as rebuilt!
sloop..I found things the PO did on my boat 20 years ago, and he acted like they were recent upgrades!

"I used to have a big ol' LORAN here that took up this whole area, but in about 1990 I upgraded to this tiny unit."

At least when I got the boat, the LORAN towers were still transmitting....
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - for sale - PM me if interested
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 (uh oh, two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 06-07-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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