Possible fuel excess?

[ejay]

I have had issues with my A4 not starting in the past which have been resolved with removing spark plugs, and drying out the cylinders. I have blamed water incursion in the past, but I did not put my tongue on the spark plug to see if there was a salt water taste. I wonder if excessive fuel could "flood" the engine before it starts?

A previous owner installed some creative fuel pump wiring so that the fuel pump will turn on before ignition. He told me that I had to do this to "prime" the engine, but I wonder if running the fuel pump before ignition could foul the plugs with excess fuel and prevent starting?


Thanks!

ej
78 C30

[Dave Neptune]

The A-4 has an updraft carburetor which sits well below the "intake runners" in the manifold. The "excess" fuel if there is any before cranking would run out the carb and not get into the cylinders. After cranking and no start with the choke engaged is about the only way the plugs can get wet from fuel.

Do you shut the water valve off at the thru hull when done with the engine? If you do is is time for a pressure check of the intake manifold, not difficult with parts from the hardware store. If the manifold is good do a compression check which is easier than pressure checking the "block".

Dave Neptune

[ndutton]

We should know what the liquid is, fuel or water, to be able to resolve this. The direction of Dave's post doubts it's fuel and more likely water. Easy enough to check with a taste test. Speaking of tests, it would also be good to know the general condition of the engine and exhaust configuration and condition. A water jacket pressure test on both the manifold and block separately and a compression test would tell us a bunch. A detailed description and pictures of the exhaust system would be very helpful too.

I have a 1977 Catalina 30 with probably the smallest volume waterlift muffler fitted anywhere, the Centek 150002 top in - top out, an anti-siphon vented loop as opposed to an anti-siphon valve, a swing check valve at the high point of the exhaust run to the transom and an external flapper at the outlet with never - and I mean never - a water incursion.

[ejay]

Here is the pic of the hot gas exhaust going to the muffler. You can see there is no rise at all, given the limited space in the C30, which has always made me worry about the water incursion during sailing. However, the instances where the engine would not start have not been during or after excessive heeling, but after the boat has sat quietly in a marina.

I had to replace the previous exhaust run that was just like it, due to a catastrophic failure during a trip. I insulated the pipe after this picture.

[Dave Neptune]

Granted that is not much rise. I had the same problem with height.

Do you have an anti siphon valve? Many with C-30's and E-35MKII's have eliminated them as getting enough "height" to make them function well is problematic. I eliminated mine and ran a bleed to a cockpit drain and Neil eliminated his too I believe but I'm not sure where he connected his. I'm sure Neil will chime in with that info.

If the engine is running well once running I would first check the integrity of the manifold as an internal pin hole leak would take a long time to get much water into the manifold like when sitting for a long time with the engine off. If the A-S valve is sticking it would not take long to get water into the cylinders.

If the manifold checks good a compression check may yield some answers.

Dave Neptune

[ndutton]

The vent on my loop is connected to the sink drain plumbing inside the galley cabinet. Attaching it there ensures it's connected above the waterline, the waterline being roughly equal to the bottom of the galley cabinet on a Catalina 30. A better place in my opinion would be into the side wall of the galley sink although drilling a hole into the stainless sink would be a chore. Of course if going to a vented loop and plumbing it into the sink drain, the sink drain thru-hull must be open during engine operation.

Thanks for the exhaust hot section picture ej. I'm not seeing anything amiss although double clamping would make it more secure and therefore safer.

I'd still like to confirm what the liquid observed on the spark plugs actually is. We are thinking it's probably water but only you can tell us for sure. And I completely agree with Dave, manifold pressure test is next.

Other info:
On another forum (that's actually more like a blog) ej asked if anyone had a muffler drain system to evacuate the residual water in the muffler after shutdown. Well, I do. The thread discussing it is found here. During its development I actually measured the residual water volume after shutdown and surprisingly it wasn't much at all, like barely a quart. Several measurements were made at different engine RPMs at shutdown but the results were consistent. I'm not suggesting such a drain system is necessary or even recommended because as I mentioned earlier, I never had a water incursion prior to its installation. I have it installed now because:

1. The Catalina 30 exhaust system design is frighteningly marginal
2. It's one more tier of prevention
3. I'm a tinkerer
4. What good does developing a drain do if it's left on the workbench?
5. A solution in search of a problem maybe?

[ejay]

I am not understanding the vented loop that you mentioned. Which line has the vented loop?

[ndutton]

Here's an annotated drawing. Your loop is located as high as possible in the galley cabinet next to the sink (pictured). It may have a small valve that automatically lets in air on the top or instead of a valve it may have a small hose that eventually goes to a thru-hull. In time the valve may fail by being stuck or clogged. The hose type has no moving parts.

[jbsoukup]

My anti-siphon failed which resulted in water in the crankcase oil.
I have the bronze one identical to the one in Nduttons' photo.
Turns out there is (was) some kind of rubber one way valve in the brass nipple on the top, which allowed breaking of suction when the engine was turned off while not allowing water to squirt out the top when the engine was running.
I eliminated those guts in there, made sure it was all cleared out, and ran the small hose on top into the sink drain hose. This results in water spitting out constantly while the engine is running, into the sink drain, which naturally results in the sink through hull needing to be open.
It also results in a clearly heard sucking sound when the engine is shut down.
A very comforting sound to my ears.

I'm wondering if one could get water incursion, through the manifold due to siphon action, into the cylinders without it also showing up in the oil?

As a side note, some of the best advise I got from the C30 guys here was to replace the engine wiring. Not all that hard to do and totally resolved my intermittent hard starting, shutdown, and charging gremlins. I could go about that, on but seems a little off topic.

[ejay]

Thanks so much for the explanation!

So the vented loop is for the raw water discharge line prior to mixing with the hot exhaust gases, which hopefully means that exhaust gas cannot travel up to the vent?

I do have the bronze vented loop inside the sink cabinet, although I have no idea where the small vent hose exits.

[ndutton]

ejay, any update to report?

[ejay]

So i have a picture here of the old solenoid switch which the previous owner installed to drain the muffler. It was leaking constantly even when switched off, so I yanked it. I then put a small 12 volt pump on the same switch connected to the drain just beyond the red valve handle, but I drained it to the holding tank, so that the dirty muffler water does not stay in the bilge. I probably should switch the drain to the sink drain.

The second picture is the vented loop for the raw water before it hits the muffler. The problem is the small drain hose at the top goes to the bilge and constantly drips water when the engine is running. I like the idea of attaching it to the sink drain above the water line.

I fired up the engine today because I had been away several weeks, and she purred like a kitten. No problems. I do close the raw water intake prior to turning the engine over now.

[joe_db]

Related to this, I am going to switch my anti-siphon valve to an overboard drain. I have had them go bad and spit water twice now, going bad the other way would not be obvious until it was too late.

[ndutton]

As originally designed the Groco anti-siphon loop has a valve inside the side appendage. If it's still there and you're shipping water out of the little hose at the top the valve is not functioning properly and needs either replacement or removal depending on your preference for anti-siphon protection, valve or vented loop.

[ejay]

I would rather have the valve for the device already installed. The top portion of the loop just unscrews? I guess there is a good chance i could clean it and make it functional again so that air comes in but water does not go out? Or should I just search for a new valve online?

[ndutton]

When working properly air goes IN and nothing comes out. I don't have a Groco loop but I'm certain the cap unscrews to access the valve. I'd be surprised if Groco didn't have replacements.

[GregH]

Sorry to sidebar here - If you are replacing bits n bobs, I would also replace the fuel filter (after the fuel pump) with one that cannot melt in case of a fire. Those are not meant for below decks.