in neutral, boat goes forward slightly

[RNC725]

when I start her up, she moves forward in neutral, very slowly. Have got to think that there needs to be an adjustment of some kind, cant find this problem in the manual or online as of yet.

Thoughts?

I can live with it, but it makes backing her up a nightmare (1967 Cal 30) as I normally get a bit of speed then shift to neutral -- but now neutral is a very slow forward.

Moved to a new slip today and really need that neutral....

thanks

Bob Centers

[hanleyclifford]

You need to determine whether you have a linkage or gear box problem. Is there any spot in the shifter travel where you have a neutral?

[RNC725]

sorry, not much of a mechanic at all here

[hanleyclifford]

So if it develops that at no point along the travel of the shifter the engine is in neutral, you need to look at the adjustment in the gearbox. Do you have the Moyer Marine Overhaul and Repair Manual?

[RNC725]

jsut not sure if I have enough 'smarts' to adjust this one myself

[hanleyclifford]

You already made the smart move by getting the Manual. Now go to page 6-4, second column, 7). It would seem that you need to turn the collar one notch counter clockwise. The biggest danger is that you might drop something into the bottom of the box. Be careful and methodical. You can do this adjustment. Regards, Hanley

[RNC725]

and I will owe you one if I can make this thing work on my own....

many thanks and fairwinds, I'll let you know


bob

[sastanley]

Bob, another way to look at it is that there is technically no neutral...just a dead space between forward and when the gears spin differently for reverse. You are trying to enlarge this dead space to give you some sense of 'neutral'.

When I take it out of forward and adjust the shift lever so it is quiet, it is actually still spinning slowly in forward...On my boat, the engine starts its little 'reverse whine' before the gearbox actually engages the shaft for reverse..there is a slight spot there where the shaft isn't turning.

Good luck with your adjustment and report back!

[Marian Claire]

RNC: It was my experience that I did not have to completely bolt down the access cover each time I adjusted and tested. One bolt will do. That may save you some time and you can make several small adjustments. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[dvd]

My nuetral is also very narrow. When it is out of gear the shaft still spins a little bit for a while. I notice that I can adjust the shift letter and achieve nuetral. Don't go a adjusting anything if you can find a narrow nuetral band with your shift lever. If you have a lazzarette opening where you can see the shaft and move the shift lever at the same time move the shift lever around while watching the shaft and see if you can find a spot however small where the shaft doesn't spin. If you can I would leave it alone. This aspect of the A-4 set up is a litlle funky as we all know. It may require you to find that short narrow nuetral sweet spot. if you can't achieve any nuetral then you need to make the indicated adjustment. If you are new to the boat and A-4 engines what you are experiencing may be normal. Remember these old girls are ancient and have there little quirks that we are all used to.

dvd

[RNC725]

I'll try it again before we attempt to make the adjustment, we actually noticed it when we first start the engine at the dock and then we'd notice she'd be pulling at her dock lines,

thanks

bobby

[Baltimore Sailor]

The only thing I have to add is that hanleyclifford recommended turning the collar "one notch counter clockwise." That sounds to me like he's talking about the forward gear adjustment, which you don't want to touch right now.

You want to adjust the reversing gear, which is a whole 'nother ball of wax. You have to take the cover off the gear box, but all you need to do is loosen up the reversing band adjustment nut a half-turn to start with. You'll only be able to move it about one face at a time, so count carefully.

The forward gear has a definite detent that it grabs to go into gear, but the reversing gear does not. It depends on the friction of the reversing band against the drum in there to work -- if you need reverse for any length of time it's not unusual to have to hold the shifter back to keep it in gear. In forward you should always get the "click" of the detent which holds the tranny in gear for that direction.

[roadnsky]

I'll try and help out just a little bit more.
Here's the directions...

(If Shawn "prods" me, I'll post pics too)

[RNC725]

please sir!

Bobby

[hanleyclifford]

What has not yet been determined is whether there is a "sweet spot" where the shaft is not moving. My recommendation for going into the gear box depends on there being no such spot available.

[sastanley]

Bobby, I'll comment that the only way I can tell the shaft isn't moving is to visually check it. My engine is under the galley counter top so i can see it with the access door open. After repeated observations I am learning to tell it by the sound of the reversing gear whining (and noticing any thrust or lack thereof.

Jerry, I'll post one of my prop shaft view, since I've never taken the reversing gear cover off.

Bobby, This is the view I have of the couplers thru the access door at the bottom of the stairs..in this case, I have it easy.

[hanleyclifford]

Just to be most accurate I recommend that the linkage be removed from the gear lever while the engine is run tied to the dock. If the shaft cannot be stopped, we must consider going into the box. BTW, Shawn, that coupler is inspiring to see.

[wlevin]

I do what Shawn does. I don't think there is a real neutral. In fact, the "sweet spot" when the prop shaft is not turning at all, varies from day to day. Who knows why. Shifter arm straight up, back a bit, forward a bit. It could be anywhere.
When I want the equivalent of neutral I pull back on the shifter arm until I just begin to hear the whine of reverse, then push the arm forward a tiny bit until the whining stops. My idea is that even if I am still in reverse like this, the prop will be turning very very slowly, and who cares anyway. I can hardly reverse our boat with the reverse fully engaged and the throttle up to 2 K, so how much effect can there be on the boat if the prop is turning a bit in reverse? That's my neutral.
Bill and Jeanne
T34C #453
Otter

[hanleyclifford]

On the A4 we might define "neutral" as that condition in which the clutch pack for forward and the overrunning reverse band are both sufficiently dissengaged so that the shaft does not turn. It is a condition, not a position. What we need to determine here is whether this condition can be achieved on this engine without going into the gearbox.

[rigspelt]

After two seasons I've learned that finding neutral is an art. I can't readily see the shaft while docking, but like Shawn and others I've found the sound that tells me the tranny is just starting to spin in reverse. My shifter is horizontal, so by weight keeps wanting to drift down and spin the prop gently in forward if I let it go. I have been trying to figure out how to rig a keeper, for example when working on the running engine on the hard. I don't want the shaft spinning on the hard because the PSS shaft seal should not run dry.

(About the photo: I slipped an old manual bilge pump handle over the short shift lever to improve mechanical advantage shifting -- got it on swap for half a can of varnish. I later replaced those silly knobs with proper set screws.)

[sastanley]

Bill, 2K might not be enough to get her going in reverse.

For those of us with a direct drive shaft, this poor engine spends 99.5% of its life lugging against a big ol' bow wave and working her tail off to run 2,000 RPM in forward. With the reduction drive in reverse the engine loves to go in reverse and run up to ~2,500 RPM. She is wild & free for those 15 seconds or so, screaming like a banshee and running like a champ.

It also helps get you going, which is the best way to overcome propwash..Once moving a 1-1.5 knots or so in reverse you can back off the throttle and use the rudder. Give yourself a little runway and do some practice runs.

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by RNC725

Im not Shawn but consider yourself prodded....
please sir!

Bobby-
I'm on the road (business) until Sunday.
I'll pop the cover and take some shots and post soon...

I can also recommend the MMI video (DVD) of the Reversing Gear.
Everything you'll ever need to know in a training film.
And Don gives an Emmy winning performance to boot!

[JOHN COOKSON]

But it is in a different position when I shift from forward to neutral than when I shift from reverse to neutral.

Is this normal?

The "floating neutral" may be a shift control issue not an A4 issue?

Have learned to live with it over the years.

TRUE GRIT

[hanleyclifford]

I would venture to say that most A4 owners have a "floating" or ill defined neutral. I know that I have to feel for mine every time and if I really want to stop the prop I open the engine hatch and watch to make sure it stops. The point is that it is possible to make it stop, to find "neutral". In the case under discussion it seems the prop cannot be stopped. The first step is to disconnect all cable linkage and see if the gearbox itself is the problem.

[Baltimore Sailor]

I'd say the "floating neutral" is more a function on the slop on your shifter cable. The tranny is going to be in neutral when it is, but where you pull the shifter to put it into that position is going to be based on the amount of give in the cable.

Don't worry so much about where the lever is when you're in neutral -- just try to get the reversing gear set so that you have a range of neutral that's easy to hit.