Ignition Issues, Need Help

[Bents]

Hi everyone!

My wife and I bought our first sailboat a couple of weeks ago (catalina 27) and are super excited to get into the sailing life (I've got a decent amount of experience on the water). We have been doing a full clean of the boat and I've been fixing and replacing little things here and there over the last 2 weeks. We ran into our first major issue yesterday...

When the previous owner showed us the boat the engine (atomic 4) fired up right away and sounded great. Yesterday I thought I would fire up the engine myself check out the controls, hear how it sounded. I was told that it starts like a car since its a gas engine. I turned on battery 1, ran the blower for a minute or two, and turned the key. The engine started up no problem but the key basically spun all the way around. I didn't give it a ton of pressure when I cranked it, I don't think anyway. I thought hmm that's weird but OK. I ran the engine for a couple minutes, played with the throttle a little bit to get a feel for it, went to turn off the engine by turning the key in the opposite direction. The key just spun around. This is my "oh no" moment, I have a running engine and cant turn it off. I did the only thing I could think of and turned off the fuel supply. Then engine stalled out a short time later and I felt a brief sense of relief and pride as I just solved my first major issue.

WRONG!

Smoke began coming out of engine compartment. I jumped down, removed the ladder, opened the engine door and I'm met with a ton of smoke. As I peer in it looks like its the electrical wires burning. Time to grab the fire extinguisher. I give it a few short blasts. Panic is over. Went back and grabbed the key and the whole assembly came out with it.

Thanks for reading the back story, here come the questions.

1. Did I some how force the key to hard and break the assembly when turning the engine on?

Repairs, obviously I'm going to need a new ignition, the wiring harness has 1 wire that looks like the coating melted off it, maybe the ground wire?

2. Replace the ignition and just that wire, or replace the whole harness to be safe?

3. Is that all that will need to be repaired or did I eff myself?

4. When all is fixed and I get the courage to try to start it up again do I need to do anything specific procedure wise other than just turning the fuel supply back on?

On a completely different note, my throttle and gear shifters just pull out of the housing, it looks like there are little balls in the housing that should be clipping the shifters in.... any idea on how to fix?

Thanks in advance everyone for helping a first time boat owner noob. Picture uploaded for reference.

[Bents]

pictures continued

[Bents]

even more pictures!

[Bents]

last one, for now :P

If any more info is needed, or specific photos, just let me know. Thanks again all!

[Dave Neptune]

Bents, WOW you have a mess on your hands here. If you do things one at a time it will be much easier to do and understand.

Easy things first. The shifter and throttle handles are held by a spring clip which probably only needs a bit of oil and in and outs to get back to working. Not an issue.

Yes you will need a new ignition key and I suggest one from our host as it will be of good quality and marine rated. Some here like a key switch for "ign on" and a start button to engage the starter, just a matter of choice.

Next you will need to trace out the wires that cooked so you know what shorted out. Could of been from the switch breaking, that was not a quality switch. Once you know what cooked rewire info will follow. There are many on this site who are very good with wiring and very helpful.

You show a pic of the what we call the "trailer plug harness connector" it is a real piece of crap for a marine environment. Many of us rewired just to get rid of it because it constantly gives problems from corrosion causing dead leads and voltage drops. I strongly suggest you do at least rewire what the plug does. Many schematics posted around this site.

You also have quite a few wires on the +side of the coil that should also be identified. You don't want to use that post as a power source for anything other than the ign, tach and possibly the alternator.

Like I stated one step at a time and it will not be to bad. You could also run fresh wiring for the new key switch and eliminate the old ones just to get you going. However I suspect you will run into many wiring issues on any boat this old. Everything will work better with fresh wire and clean connections especially at the batteries.

Dave Neptune

[Bents]

Thanks for the speedy reply, Dave.

I'm on my way to the boat now and will start with some WD40 on those throttle clips.

I like the idea of a full rewire but I'd rather that be an off season job. If we can get her working with just the ignition replacement that would be ideal for now as Canadian summers don't last very long and we would like to get out a few times if we can :P

Which part is the coil? I will trace those +wires.

Stay tuned for more info

[joe_db]

I am going to pretend I am still running my shop and got called for this.
My estimate would include removing every bit of wiring I can see in those photos and starting over from scratch. I don't see one thing I would leave in place.
The fuel tank isn't looking too good either!
The bad news is any shop that is any good is going to charge a lot of money for that job and be weeks or months out.
The good news is that you can do this yourself. The A4 has no tricky wiring, it is all basic DC stuff that is well understood. As you learn the systems and how to fix them, you will gain knowledge that will serve you well. Instead of being stuck in a remote port waiting for an overbooked shop to charge you hundreds or thousands of dollars to fix something so you can get home, you will do it yourself and be on your way

[Dave Neptune]

What Joe stated is good info. Joe and another guy, Neil Dutton are very good with the wiring and electrical systems advise.

The coil is a black cylindrical devise and is mounted on the end of the engine, it supplies the "hi voltage" for the spark plugs. It has one big wire that goes to the top of the distributor and another small wire that goes to the points on the -(negative) side and another possible to a tachometer.

Dave Neptune

[capnward]

Was the key spinning inside the switch, or was the entire switch spinning where attached to the boat? I was going to say you should have turned off the battery switch as soon as the ignition switch spun around possibly shorting out the ignition circuit, but then I remembered that is to be avoided when the engine is running, not sure why. Leaving the ignition on while shorted out, long enough for the engine to run out of gas, caused the fire. You dodged a bullet there. Good work with the fire extinguisher. Now you will be spending some of your glorious Canadian summer learning how to wire your ignition system. You might need a new coil, so have one on hand. https://moyermarine.com/product/coil...ce-iglm_05_31/
Along with the switch, replace every fried wire on the boat. Also replace the trailer harness connector with actual one-piece wires. Then you can go sailing. The good news is the guys at Moyer and on this forum will help you. It's a steep learning curve but you can do it. Good Luck!
Attached is one of many possible wiring diagrams.

[msmith10]

" I was going to say you should have turned off the battery switch as soon as the ignition switch spun around possibly shorting out the ignition circuit, but then I remembered that is to be avoided when the engine is running, not sure why."
I suspect you do know why, Capnward. If you shut off the battery switch while the engine is running you'll fry the diodes in the alternator faster than a speeding bullet.
In addition to checking the fuel tank, that fill hose looks awfully punky.
I agree with Joe- I'd replace all the wiring starting with the battery cables.
I understand you're really excited about the new boat and anxious to use it, Bents, but there are lots of safety issues apparent here that have to be addressed before I'd be comfortable operating that boat. Electrical problems and fuel problems are a bad combination. Don't know where you're located or how long your season is, but I wouldn't plan on operating your boat until those have been addressed/corrected and you've caught up on neglected maintenance. Find an old sailor who'd be willing to look things over and give you some advice on what needs repaired NOW and what could wait until later.

[Bents]

Originally Posted by Dave Neptune

Next you will need to trace out the wires that cooked so you know what shorted out. Could of been from the switch breaking, that was not a quality switch. Once you know what cooked rewire info will follow.

You also have quite a few wires on the +side of the coil that should also be identified. You don't want to use that post as a power source for anything other than the ign, tach and possibly the alternator.
Dave Neptune

Well, upon further inspection, I'm definitely going to replace the whole harness. I traced the cooked wire back to another connector plug at the back of the cockpit panel. No cooked wires past that plug. I am also going to replaced the battery cables.

As far as the +side of the coil, not sure what those wires are connected to but I included some pics of where they lead.

Green and orange wires go to the same spot on the other side of the engine.

Red goes to the thing right beside the coil.

Purple wire looks like it goes into the plug, my pinky is touching it in the picture.

Originally Posted by capnward

Was the key spinning inside the switch, or was the entire switch spinning where attached to the boat? I was going to say you should have turned off the battery switch as soon as the ignition switch spun around possibly shorting out the ignition circuit, but then I remembered that is to be avoided when the engine is running, not sure why. Leaving the ignition on while shorted out, long enough for the engine to run out of gas, caused the fire. You dodged a bullet there. Good work with the fire extinguisher. Now you will be spending some of your glorious Canadian summer learning how to wire your ignition system. You might need a new coil, so have one on hand. https://moyermarine.com/product/coil...ce-iglm_05_31/
Along with the switch, replace every fried wire on the boat. Also replace the trailer harness connector with actual one-piece wires. Then you can go sailing. The good news is the guys at Moyer and on this forum will help you. It's a steep learning curve but you can do it. Good Luck!
Attached is one of many possible wiring diagrams.
Attachment 16498

Thanks, Cap! The key was spinning inside the switch.

Luckily I read the manual and knew enough not to cut the batter while the engine is running heh.

[Bents]

my pinky is on the purple wire coming off the coil.

added a pic of where the cooked wire connects as well.

[Dave Neptune]

msmith10 & Bents, the reason for not switching the "battery switch" when running is that it may "blow out" the diodes in the alternator possibly rendering it useless. However with an electrical fire the first thing to do is switch the batteries OFF.

Bents, in your quest to do a rewire some things should be considered. First all wire runs should be as short as possible to minimize power loss within the wire. Also using wire the proper size or larger is a good idea as well.
Another consideration is the Ammeter itself. Running the main power wire up and back is another long run and a volt meter can give you the same basic info as to whether or not the alternator is working. It is a simpler wiring hookup to.
And consider any gages you may wish to install and where you want them making wiring again simpler to accomplish.

I get from some of your questions that you don't have a lot of engine knowledge. No biggie as there is no such thing as a stupid question only a question to which you do not know the answer.

The 2 green wires and the one orange are hooked up to the OPSS (oil pressure SAFETY switch). This switch is normally open, IE no flow of current. It operates the electric fuel pump (Facet) when the engine is running. It senses oil pressure when cranking and until it senses pressure it will not close and flow current to operate the fuel pump. Once is senses pressure it closes and supplies the power and stays on unless it senses a lack of oil pressure and then opens stopping the flow and saving the engine from running without oil pressure thus saving it.

Any questions you have should get answered so you can understand the function and necessity of sensors and switches.

Dave Neptune

[edwardc]

Something no one has mentioned is the fire extinguisher residue. You should clean that stuff out thoroughly as soon as possible. I have found it to be corrosive to metal parts if left in contact for a period of time.

[Bents]

Will do Edward, thank you!!

I've got a new wire harness kit and ignition en route!

[TimBSmith]

You have the emeritus brain trust commenting already....

My only comment is slow down. Savor the learning/teaching moment. Again and again I am learning that nearly everything that goes wrong with our iron sail or sailing in general stems from an attempt to force impatience into nature. I am still learning that the bedrock of sailing is a well monitored and managed "flow state".

My own lessons on the electrical front. My PO was an electrical engineer. This elicits two reactions...the naive: "that is excellent" and the wise "dear god no!".

You see, the brilliant expert rarely documents design improvisation. That is left for you to discover. And if you are new to boating electrical the Dunning Kruger effect(a little knowledge is dangerous) will really set you up for some adventures.

Out of unadulterated fear and skimming the DC Bible, I traced every wire. Inspected every fuse. Bus bars were found in the strangest places. Fusing patterns defied my attempts to discern purpose and effect.

And then...much later...I came to understand 50% of what I had seen. I am still working on the rest. How many times have I reviewed the calculations for coil resistance and protecting the alternator and starting circuit. When I read the word "diode" my eyes roll back into my skull.

And yet. When I slow down. Deepen. I reduce errors. I derisk my ignorance. My errors are therefore, less expensive. And that, in this boating world, is a big win. (for all but the 1%).

The only risks worse than rushing anything sailing related is sailing when both ignorant and broke. Don't ask me how I know. This is not to say that sailing needs to be expensive. Once again father time is your friend. A captain can learn much investigating, speaking to other captains and frequenting salvage yards for good value. Even when it comes to electrical infrastructure.

My only advice is to slow down. Enjoy(even savor) the learning. Derisk your sailing journey. Embrace unique communities like this one where most everyone (including our host) will instantly invest in you, help you succeed beyond your wildest imaginings.

Welcome to the forum and the A4 that is your ticket to an adventure that transcends having a functioning propulsion system, and really asks you what kind of skipper do you want to be. Closing with gratitude to you and all contributors.

[joe_db]

Here is a better diagram that eliminates the problematic ammeter.

[joe_db]

Also buy these books. They aren't cheap but will save you many multiples of what they cost.
https://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Me...s%2C153&sr=8-1

https://moyermarine.com/product/serv...erhaul-manual/

[Bents]

Thank you, Tim.

Wise words, I will take them to heart. I certainly intend to take my time. I'm a hands on learner and anytime spent on the boat is good time.

[W2ET]

Regarding that old/damaged wiring, I refer you to this.

Showing my age, I know....

Bill

[Dave Neptune]

Bill, thanx for the good laugh.

Dave Neptune

[joe_db]

I agree - take it all off. None of that wiring looks reusable to me. Also do NOT try and recreate the trailer plug idea.

[sastanley]

Bents...as a former Catalina owner, I can reinforce how terrible those silly "trailer plugs" are in those boats. I did this off-season, but I totally rewired the engine harness. You can always temporarily replace a bad wire, and it is your boat, so YMMV.
Here are a couple pics of my re-wire...and good luck.

[GregH]

I couldn't see if anyone commented on the picture of your batteries. The battery with the charger clipped on - both the red and black need to be changed. The exposed wire strands are bad/dangerous enough snice they are bent and have little support but I believe I can also see some frayed strands.

[Surcouf]

plenty of good advices here...
like may others, I went through the task of completely removing the trailer harness, and re-wire everything directly point to point. I learnt a lot on the way, and corrected many PO incomprehensible decisions (pretty sure I created a few more for future ones...)
Took me the best part of a full day, after long hours of reading several threads, and multiple trips to Harbor freight, shipshandler etc...
https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...t=11241&page=8
you will se on post #164 what my plug looked like when I decided to remove harness, and add fuses to many missing circuits

read everything you can, I liked those 2.
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ht=fuse+rating
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ht=fuse+rating

It ended up being a much easier job than I expected, and when with lines properly arranged, it looked so much better. Clearly not an hour job, but not a season ending job at all.