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  #26   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 04-17-2020, 12:45 AM
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Well, I'm a believer that if my time is worth more than what I can buy on Am*zon to possibly solve a problem for a very reasonable price, I just buy it. Yes, I can be lazy.

I have basically the same alternator for the debugging the soon-to-be-assembled rebuild motor. Ultimately I'll replace with Balmar that I've bought, but it needs an external reg... so I want to avoid that complexity for the motor install.
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:50 AM
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I guess I'd just like to know if this is normal behavior for this type of alternator. Doesn't seem right.
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Old 04-17-2020, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackConnick View Post
But the basic issue is that after about 30 mins it's charging at a ridiculously low rate.
What are you expecting vs. what it is doing? How have you determined what the charge rate should be after 30 minutes? Is it behaving differently than it has in the past? When did it change?
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Old 04-17-2020, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackConnick View Post
Ok, I installed the BlueSea SI battery isolater/combiner.

The alternator output now goes to the house bank. The combiner will charge the starter battery if it needs it. Most of the time I just have it in reserve.

All the connections have been gone through, all is good.

Ran the house bank (2x new Grp 27) down to -22.2 amh.

Started and ran the boat up to cruising revs as before.

---Start (5 mins):

Alt output: 13.7v
Battery: 13.5v

25.1 amp output

---15 mins

Alt output : 13.55v, 16 amp output
Battery: 13.4v

-19.2 amh on bank

Very negligible change. It may be charging up a bit more at the beginning. But the basic issue is that after about 30 mins it's charging at a ridiculously low rate.

I think it's narrowed down to the alternator. Would a diode or something be causing this? Its getting pretty old, but as I said the shop checked it's basic operation, but there wasn't a much more than a quick load test done

I'm going to call a couple of shops in the am. But it might be just as easy and cheap to buy a new 105 amp Delco 10si marine model for $67.

https://powerparts360.com/aftermarke...-wire-105-amp/

Thoughts?

TIA,
Jack
Part 1 fixed, no more diodes.
Now before anything else happens, double check EVERY connection for corrosion and looseness if you haven't already. Do yourself a favor and run a ground wire from the alternator to the same place the battery ground connects to the engine so the current is not running through the engine block. This avoids voltage drop and also potential engine damage. I know this sounds odd and probably is a 1 in 10 million occurrence, but I used to fly an airplane with a PT-6 turboprop engine and some of them failed do to bad ground connections. The charging current ended up following a path that went through a bearing and somehow the current made the bearings fail. Ever since that I have tried to never use engines as wires if I can help it.

What you are seeing is pretty much what happened with my cheap 10si, it quit putting out enough voltage. I would suspect another cheap one to go the same way sooner or later. At some point you are going to want an external regulator too. Once you have that set up, it is easy to troubleshoot various issues and you can change regulators at will too. I started with a simple one stage adjustable where I was the one turning it up and down if I wanted to and now have a nice Balmar 3 stage. When my old regulator failed I made do with a lightbulb until I got a new one. You can DIY the 10si series for this or buy the Transpo kit.

Last edited by joe_db; 04-17-2020 at 08:03 AM.
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  #30   IP: 137.103.82.227
Old 04-17-2020, 08:13 AM
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Almost forgot - make sure the belt is not slipping! If it does, the pulley gets red hot and the heat damages the alternator besides for not putting out power.
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Old 04-17-2020, 12:42 PM
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As I've said repeatedly. All connections are fine. The wire is fine. A .2 voltage loss is pretty negligible between the alt and battery.

It just isn't putting out amps after very long.

It's pretty old, so I've gotten my use out of it.

I talked to a couple of shops and they thought it was the voltage regulator. It's not worth screwing with.

The marine electric guy I talked to said that the 63 amp model was right from my engine and battery bank. I wasn't going to get anything much more out of the 105 and it actually wouldn't work as well.

Yeah, sure the Balmar setup is sweet. I saw a new set being sold off for $500 on EBay yesterday, but just couldn't justify the $$ right now. I just got through buying 2 new sails and installing an icebox conversion unit.

If I get a couple of seasons out of this alternator I should be fine. Most of the time we're only out a couple of days from the dock and my 20 amp Mastervolt throws the coals to the batteries great.

I'll report back what I get with the new alternator once installed.

Jack
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:45 PM
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Do you have solar or a wind gen? These can interact with the alternator's regulator and cause it to stop charging too soon, unless the whole system is carefully "tuned". 1/10s of a volt count! (dont ask me how I know this)
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  #33   IP: 137.103.82.227
Old 04-17-2020, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
Do you have solar or a wind gen? These can interact with the alternator's regulator and cause it to stop charging too soon, unless the whole system is carefully "tuned". 1/10s of a volt count! (dont ask me how I know this)
Oh yeah - forgot - the OTHER charging sources have to be OFF for any of these tests to work. The more sophisticated ones will all trigger each other into float.
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Old 04-17-2020, 06:14 PM
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No other sources. Shore charger was off.
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Old 04-25-2020, 12:19 PM
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Well, just to finish up this thread. I bought and installed a new Delco 10si ignition-protected "marine" alternator and changed the belt for drill. It has a slightly smaller pulley on it, I think 2.25". The old one was like 2.625"

The voltage output is much better at 14.5 volts (at the battery), and the amp output starts out better, but again quickly falls off after 1/2 hour or so. I'm guessing it might be heat related, but I run the blower all the time the engine is on and it really doesn't get that hot. It's just not able to deal with deep cycle batteries.

So definitely an improvement, but a Balmar setup is in my future, maybe next season. I'll keep my eye out on EBay.

Thanks for the suggestions,
Jack
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Old 04-25-2020, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackConnick View Post
The voltage output is much better at 14.5 volts (at the battery), and the amp output starts out better, but again quickly falls off after 1/2 hour or so. I'm guessing it might be heat related, but I run the blower all the time the engine is on and it really doesn't get that hot. It's just not able to deal with deep cycle batteries.
Please reread my post (#3 in this thread) from almost two weeks ago. I didn't say it then as bluntly as I'm saying it now but I think the only problem here is your expectation vs. reality. You replaced the alternator and other than higher output voltage nothing has changed.

BTW, if you have electronic ignition your alternator output voltage might be a little aggressive risking coil damage. You might consider checking the ignition system current at the new voltage.
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Old 04-25-2020, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackConnick View Post
Well, just to finish up this thread. I bought and installed a new Delco 10si ignition-protected "marine" alternator and changed the belt for drill. It has a slightly smaller pulley on it, I think 2.25". The old one was like 2.625"

The voltage output is much better at 14.5 volts (at the battery), and the amp output starts out better, but again quickly falls off after 1/2 hour or so. I'm guessing it might be heat related, but I run the blower all the time the engine is on and it really doesn't get that hot. It's just not able to deal with deep cycle batteries.

So definitely an improvement, but a Balmar setup is in my future, maybe next season. I'll keep my eye out on EBay.

Thanks for the suggestions,
Jack
When the amps taper off, what is the voltage at the battery? If it is pretty close to 14.5 volts, what you are seeing is what happens when a battery starts filling back up. If the voltage is falling, the alternator might be overheating. I am betting on the former.
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Old 04-25-2020, 11:43 PM
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Yes, it stays at 14.5v, but the amps fall off quite a bit.

Jack
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Old 04-26-2020, 02:09 AM
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As Neil and Joe say, that's normal. Once you got the voltage back to where is needs to be for FLA batteries (14.4V+), you are now seeing the normal behavior.

Does you amp meter map closely to the amps in vs. the amps out?
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Old 04-26-2020, 06:47 PM
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You are now seeing the entire reason the smart regulator, aka 3 stage regulator, and high output alternators got invented and also why people buy gels, AGMs, and Lithium batteries. Those batteries have higher acceptance - aka they charge faster - than FLA.
If I set my regulator to the FLA settings, it would charge at 14.8 volts and then back off to 13.8 (13.5?? maybe) when the battery was near full. My gel batteries would be wrecked by those voltages, my bulk/absorption voltage is 14.2.
Be warned there are a lot of $$$ to spent in this area and the A4 will negate much of what you are trying to do. My "Balmar" alternator is actually quite similar to the 55 amp Motorola that comes on many A4s. It has nice white paint and is set up for external regulation, which is nice, but nothing defeats the laws of physics. Within the space and pulley ratio constraints of an A4, you are getting about 40-50 amps. Period.
I would not have bought the Balmar version at list price, I can spray paint a Motorola white and mod it for external regulation in about 5 minutes. I got mine for about $60 on FleaBay
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Old 04-26-2020, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Be warned there are a lot of $$$ to spent in this area and the A4 will negate much of what you are trying to do
Truer words were never spoken. There is a popular marine electrician on the internet who in the past has advised installing the latest and greatest alternator system to the tune of over $3000.00 and admonishing his readers that they are foolish if they don't. Remember, all you're doing is charging a battery. Don't lose sight of that.

Here is a little reading for you:
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...d.php?p=103471
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  #42   IP: 67.168.58.141
Old 04-28-2020, 01:29 AM
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Xantrex voltage regulator

I've been offered a old (new stock) Xantrex Multistage Regulator at a very good price. It's pretty much a ARS-4, in fact I think they are made by the same people. It's a discontinued product, not sure i can find the battery and alt. temperature sensors for it.

I guess I would need the field wire out from the alternator. Not sure how to do that. The rest of the connections are fairly easy, although I see most of the regulators use some sort of plug on the back of the alternator. I suppose I could take it into the shop and have him modify it.

Looking at the Flooded battery program, it bulk outputs to 14.6v for 36 mins, then drops to acceptance for a short time, then float. I know you can program it differently.

But looking at that program and your comments above, it seems like the alternator I have is doing that. But most likely just not holding the bulk charge up long enough.

I do have a magnetic ignition, and I installed a MM high output coil a while back and moved it off the engine which solved all my coil overheating issues. I want this to be relatively trouble-free and not cook my ignition, batteries or alternator!

We mostly are away for long weekends, take a 2 week cruise in the summer. I have a great new MasterVolt 20 amp charger that's on while the boat is at dock.

Is it worth the trouble to figure out the external regulator?

Jack
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Old 04-28-2020, 02:46 AM
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I found a great overview in this article:
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/th...lation.125392/

Jack
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Old 04-28-2020, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackConnick View Post
I've been offered a old (new stock) Xantrex Multistage Regulator at a very good price. It's pretty much a ARS-4, in fact I think they are made by the same people. It's a discontinued product, not sure i can find the battery and alt. temperature sensors for it.

I guess I would need the field wire out from the alternator. Not sure how to do that. The rest of the connections are fairly easy, although I see most of the regulators use some sort of plug on the back of the alternator. I suppose I could take it into the shop and have him modify it.

Looking at the Flooded battery program, it bulk outputs to 14.6v for 36 mins, then drops to acceptance for a short time, then float. I know you can program it differently.

But looking at that program and your comments above, it seems like the alternator I have is doing that. But most likely just not holding the bulk charge up long enough.

I do have a magnetic ignition, and I installed a MM high output coil a while back and moved it off the engine which solved all my coil overheating issues. I want this to be relatively trouble-free and not cook my ignition, batteries or alternator!

We mostly are away for long weekends, take a 2 week cruise in the summer. I have a great new MasterVolt 20 amp charger that's on while the boat is at dock.

Is it worth the trouble to figure out the external regulator?

Jack
I thought your alternator was holding a steady 14.5 volts?
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:27 AM
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It seemed like it, but I think I need to do more testing over a longer time. Running it at the dock doesn't really give the best idea.

Jack
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Old 04-29-2020, 11:26 AM
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Let us start with first principles:
There are only two ways to regulate an alternator - fixed set point and variable.
A fixed set point regulator increases field current when the voltage is less than the setpoint and decreases it when it is over the setpoint.

The second part of the equation is how storage batteries act. You can look up their data and find an acceptance curve. At a given state of charge and a given voltage, they only accept so many amps.

Thought experiment number 1. You have a huge alternator that can putout 1,000 amps at idle and has a fixed setpoint. You have a dead 100 AH wet cell. It will NOT be recharged in 6 minutes! What will happen is the battery charge will follow the acceptance curve, which might be somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 C, so in this case someplace between 25 and 50 amps. As the battery charges the acceptance rate tapers off. Instead of being fully recharged in 2 to 4 hours, it might get half charged in two hours and take 4-6-8 more hours or even infinity hours to get all the way back to 100%*.
Here is the tricky part - the higher the voltage the faster it charges, but the higher the voltage the more likely the battery is to be damaged eventually if it just stays that high. Imagine filling a water balloon from a hose. If you set the valve to not have enough pressure to burst the balloon, it takes forever to fill it. If you turn it up full blast, the balloon will pop.
This is why so many sailors who bought big battery banks and big alternators back in the day found themselves with either slow charging and sulfated to death batteries or fast charging and boiled to death batteries.

More to follow.

* Easy way to think of this asymptote function - every X hours you fill up half the empty space in the battery. X hours is 50%, 2X hours is 75%, 3X hours is 87.5%, and so on. You never get to 100.

Last edited by joe_db; 04-29-2020 at 11:30 AM.
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  #47   IP: 137.200.32.54
Old 04-29-2020, 02:51 PM
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Early attempts to solve this problem:
The first attempts were human controlled one way or another.
Some people made or bought regulators that could be adjusted manually. I had one of those for many years. You could turn it up for awhile and then when you judged the batteries near full you could turn it back down. This has obvious problems with human error, both in forgetting to turn the voltage up, forgetting to turn it down, and/or misjudging the state of the batteries.
The other manual method was called the "AutoMac" and looked like this:

What it did was for the duration of the timer (big twist knob) the regulator would be fully bypassed. There was no regulation at all - the alternator was what we call "full field", putting out as much as it possibly could. This actually could work well *if used and supervised* by someone who REALLY knew what they were doing. The potential downside was far worse and more dangerous than just leaving a regulator set to 14.8 instead of 13.8 volts, you could possibly see 15 - 18 - or even more volts and cause fires or battery explosions, not to mention really destroying the batteries and other gear
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Old 04-30-2020, 07:57 AM
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This photo is similar to my regulator from 1994 to last year. It only had a single setpoint, but it was user adjustable. It was free, it came with a big alternator we ordered for a customer and he was not interested in a single voltage regulator and gave it back.
I generally had success with this, but three issues did crop up. The first odd one was until I stuck some ferrites on the leads, using a handheld radio near the engine would drive it to full output The second issue was if the connections got loose or corroded, it sensed less voltage than there was and drove the output too high. Some careful wiring work and dielectric grease solved that.
The third issue is one that I was never been able to fix: It burns out diodes. A stock alternator on an A4 with a 13.8 volt setpoint does not work very hard. Once you move away from stock alternator and the usual one car battery at a time setup, you are working your alternator much harder. Not only are you working it harder, you are doing it in a worst-case scenario. Best case is less field current and high RPMs, that runs cooler. Running more field current to get the same voltage and lower RPMs produces more heat, the cooling fan is going slower. My stock Motorola has lost diodes, the 10si I had lost diodes, and the shiny new Balmar lost diodes. Every few years is a visit to the alternator repair guy in Annapolis. The 10si didn't get repaired, it only cost $65 or so and the bearings were getting noisy too, it went right to the dumpster.
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