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Old 04-04-2020, 06:18 PM
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Block cracked... any repair possible?

So just as I was about to pump the oil sump back for for final paint... I find this... it was not like this a week ago. Have I put to more effort on the block when I removed the oil casing a few days ago? For sure this area (below the water jacket plate) was the worst in terms of corrosion.

Any repair possible? Crack is at least 10 inches long, and goes through the block on the whole length...
Thank you
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Old 04-04-2020, 09:18 PM
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My opinion is if you attempt a repair of any kind you'll never be able to trust this engine. Sorry.
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Old 04-05-2020, 02:44 AM
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My friend... Neil is right. If you have a crack (plus it is that big) ... that motor should be dead to you. You need a new block.

I just checked fleabay, and the guy that had a formerly running A4 in pieces for $395 plus shipping is closed. The same guy has one for $295 that had been flooded, and the crank would need to ground plus camshaft looked to toast. However, it was full rebuilt a few years back and has an MMI head and manifold. I was thinking of buying it just for the MMI 'bling'.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATOMIC-4-Bl...YAAOSw-mteIm9u

... but no distributor.
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Last edited by ronstory; 04-05-2020 at 02:44 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 04-05-2020, 08:51 AM
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Moved here to avoid polluting Launchpad's thread further
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surcouf View Post
Hello,
The crack in at the bottom of the block close to the lip where the oil pan is bolted.
Would a pressure test have been useful to detect that one? As far as I understand it the pressure test is in the water system no?
Thank you!
Point taken but that wasn't the question. Did you perform a cooling system pressure test before taking it apart? Even if this crack might not have been discovered, if the block is in such poor condition that it would crack with handling and disassembly it puts the integrity of the entire block in question or in other words, what else is wrong? Block integrity is critical to the decision making process of whether to rebuild or not.

Next question, where do you go from here? Attempt to repair this block, Moyer block, used engine, outboard? If considering a used engine the pressure testing advisement applies as well, preferably before committing to the deal.
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Old 04-05-2020, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Moved here to avoid polluting Launchpad's thread furtherPoint taken but that wasn't the question. Did you perform a cooling system pressure test before taking it apart? Even if this crack might not have been discovered, if the block is in such poor condition that it would crack with handling and disassembly it puts the integrity of the entire block in question or in other words, what else is wrong? Block integrity is critical to the decision making process of whether to rebuild or not.

Next question, where do you go from here? Attempt to repair this block, Moyer block, used engine, outboard? If considering a used engine the pressure testing advisement applies as well, preferably before committing to the deal.
Good thing to change thread!
No pressure test done earlier, I understand the reason why you would really want one before buying a used block.
I Would like to do one on the cracked block, out of curiosity, what pressure do you recommend? Test on air or water? What duration would be pass / fail criteria?

From now on, no idea. I am still digesting the fact that I have lost several months of very partial work. If I was to keep that boat for a long time, I would likely go short MM block. But I am very likely to leave the US in August, so I am only looking at a few week ends of sailing. And I do not feel like throwing 3 to 5 grand for a boat in addition to what I already have into it, that I will maybe sell one or two... if I go used block, full overhaul pulling out piston, machining etc...I will not be done if 5-6 weeks when boat will go back in the water.

So I just do not know, yet.
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Old 04-05-2020, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surcouf View Post
I Would like to do one on the cracked block, out of curiosity, what pressure do you recommend? Test on air or water? What duration would be pass / fail criteria?
Sorry about your block.
Here are a couple of threads about pressure testing.
(You'll see Neil's fingerprint on both)

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=11111
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ead.php?t=8063
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File Type: pdf Pressure testing a block (1).pdf (9.8 KB, 501 views)
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Old 04-05-2020, 10:55 AM
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The accepted pressure test standard is 20 PSI for 30 minutes, something in that range. I've always felt 20 PSI was a little high considering our RWC engines run at 0 PSI and FWC more like 4 PSI but whatever, y'know?

For the immediate future I suggest first setting budgets in terms of cost and time then proceeding with the best you can do within those budgets. Please read Ando's recent thread "My A-4 Adventures". He recently went through a very similar exercise on his Catalina 27. It has been a long haul for him but there was a considerable - - and successful - - learning curve in his case.

As an example, if you can find a running A4 takeout it can be a matter of maybe a weekend and you're back in business.
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Old 04-05-2020, 01:04 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Where is the boat now. I know of a Cat 27* that has a well running A4 that might be available in the southern California area.

* My 1979 Cat 27, hull # 4446, that I sold in December of last year. At one time the new owner was talking about getting rid of the A4.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 04-05-2020, 01:32 PM
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A few used A4s:

$1000:
https://www.letgo.com/en-us/i/atomic...b-a0b167c6058b

$1500:
https://annapolis.craigslist.org/bpo...090164638.html

$200
https://slo.craigslist.org/bpo/d/oce...088024083.html
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Old 04-05-2020, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Where is the boat now. I know of a Cat 27* that has a well running A4 that might be available in the southern California area.

* My 1979 Cat 27, hull # 4446, that I sold in December of last year. At one time the new owner was talking about getting rid of the A4.

ex TRUE GRIT
I am in Rhode Island.
Thank you!
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Old 04-05-2020, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstory View Post
...I just checked fleabay, and the guy that had a formerly running A4 in pieces for $395 plus shipping is closed.
This one appears to be open (maybe the same one? $395, running but possible valve problem): https://www.ebay.com/itm/ATOMIC-4-Co....c100667.m2042

It's in Delaware.
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Old 04-05-2020, 04:59 PM
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Hello Surcouf.

I see you are in Rhode Island. The last time I went by Wickford Marine Consignment, there were two A4s in their outside storage area.

Jack
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Old 04-05-2020, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
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Hello Surcouf.

I see you are in Rhode Island. The last time I went by Wickford Marine Consignment, there were two A4s in their outside storage area.

Jack
Great thank you!! I will be there first thing tomorrow (with my mask of course)
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Old 04-05-2020, 08:39 PM
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Had to check the date.. No, not an April 1 posting.
Sorry gents, but a pressure test of the cooling chambers would NOT have disclosed this crack. The only thing on the other side of that crack is splash oil.
Big mystery in my mind is what made it crack? Did this thing fall off the workbench with half the oil pan unbolted?
Looks like it might be a candidate for that seam stitching repair. I'd want to pull the oil pan and look inside and see what the other side of that crack impacts.
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Old 04-05-2020, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
Had to check the date.. No, not an April 1 posting.
Sorry gents, but a pressure test of the cooling chambers would NOT have disclosed this crack. The only thing on the other side of that crack is splash oil.
Big mystery in my mind is what made it crack? Did this thing fall off the workbench with half the oil pan unbolted?
Looks like it might be a candidate for that seam stitching repair. I'd want to pull the oil pan and look inside and see what the other side of that crack impacts.
So I pulled the dremmel and cleaned the crack; it initiates from the «*pivot*» (not sure what is the proper English word for this small round metal piece belonging to the oil pan, and that is used to center the oil pan and the block). That confirms that I probably caused that crack yesterday when removing the oil pan: I struggle a little to remove the pan and wiggle it a little, in lieu of finding something to gently pry it open. Fatal mistake on a weakened block. Lesson learnt. Pass me the tissues (I am still so missed off against myself).

Al, the second picture is one from the inside of the block. It is quite horizontal, and does not «*touch*» anything specific.

While I was cleaning the crack with the dremmel, I went to clean further that side of the block where the corrosion was the worst.... and one of the POs clearly used a LOT of JB weld. There is a square patch of JB weld (or equivalent), maybe 2 by 5 inches between the crack and the water jacket plate. Can’t say I am a huge fan of JB weld, but in the past 5 years, I never had a drop of water leaking, so it probably made the job for many years (the PO Just before had that boat for 4 years and did not touch the engine).
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Old 04-05-2020, 09:42 PM
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That 'thing' is what we call a dowel pin. They're tapered and go in from one side, usually the same direction as the adjacent bolts. You have to tap on the other (small) end to get them out. The A4 engine is basically 3 castings. The dowel pins maintain alignment critical stuff between the three pieces. The block is fit, doweled, and bolted to the transmission. That assembly gets cut smooth and fit to the oil pan, again doweled. Makes it tough to change one of the 3 parts, as the dowel holes don't line up and have to be recut or enlarged to the next size. Bolts generally have enough clearance to go in fine.
The corrosion on the side of your block came from the bolts holding the water jacket cover plate. Bolts have a clearance at the root, crest, and on the flanks of the threads - they will NOT make a seal. The fix for those bolts is to install studs into the block (sealed with epoxy) then use nuts to hold the cover plate.
Didn't see the second photo.
Are you currently heading toward repair or replacement? I know of an A4 that has been rebuilt but never run.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
Are you currently heading toward repair or replacement? I know of an A4 that has been rebuilt but never run.
I do not know what I am going to do. I do not have time to go for a full rebuilt (although there are a couple nice engine candidates available on line for that). It would be either a short block from MM, a running one (always hard to know if a seller statement is correct), or a overhauled one by somebody that can be trusted. It goes down to $$, shipping, engine history etc..

And of course there is the stupid idea of just slapping a bunch of JB weld on that long crack and starting that engine in front of the garage and see what happens. Would be done already if I had a distributor...

Next on my list is to call Ken to see what he has available...
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:08 PM
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There was another member that had an engine (I'm spacing the name) that had and engine he had rebuilt. Never saw a note it was sold.

Where are you located? Shipping could make a difference, which is why I'm building my engine than buying one from MMI. I'm on the left coast, Ken is on the right.
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Old 04-06-2020, 04:48 PM
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There was another member that had an engine (I'm spacing the name) that had and engine he had rebuilt. Never saw a note it was sold.

Where are you located? Shipping could make a difference, which is why I'm building my engine than buying one from MMI. I'm on the left coast, Ken is on the right.
I am in Rhode Island. This would be a 6 hours drive to MM, each way.
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:17 PM
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marriage counseling

You said you just want to go sailing until August.

It is common to put an outboard motor on the Cat 27.
If it is legal, get an old 9.9 two-stroke for relatively less dosh than a new four-stroke kicker.
Hang it on and go sailing.
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/th...84/post-997409

In the light of today's economy, I think a boat will be hard to sell this fall.

That poor A-4 is gone.
Russ
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:21 PM
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I am in Rhode Island. This would be a 6 hours drive to MM, each way.
With Covid-19 traffic... probably closer to 5 hours.
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:46 AM
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Here you go, $1500:
https://annapolis.craigslist.org/bpo...090164638.html
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:52 PM
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You said you just want to go sailing until August.
In the light of today's economy, I think a boat will be hard to sell this fall.
Russ
Yes.
The worst time to sell a boat in Rhode Island is in the fall and winter. As the days get shorter and the weather cooler and as the holidays approach no one thinks about sailing.
The best time to sell sail boat in spring & summer.

ex TRUE GRIT
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