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Old 09-30-2020, 10:51 AM
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Identifying a Moyer Rebuilt Engine

Hello

I recently purchased a 1973 Pearson 30 with Atomic 4. PO passed away several years ago, and boat has been on the hard for 5+ years. I have zero history on the boat.

I am pulling the motor due to frozen pistons/valves and believe it may be a Moyer rebuild rather than the original. Certainly doesn't look like a 50 y/o engine...
"MMI" is embossed on exhaust manifold. Can anyone help me identify? And, wondering if there will be a "serial number" or other identifier for the rebuild to get even more info on this motor?

Thanks for any direction!
Tom
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Old 09-30-2020, 11:11 AM
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tommysails, first welcome to the MMI Afourian Forum.

That is a good looking motor. Before pulling why not try to get her to spin? Is there water in the oil? It is not uncommon for rings to stick when they have set for 5 years. I would definitely try to break her loose in the boat first. It is not that big of a deal unless the oil pan has a bunch of water in it.

Removing the starter and CAREFULLY prying in BOTH directions on the flywheel may do the trick.

Take a good look at the oil. If it is clear pay attention to the oil level as some water may just be lying in the bottom of the pan.

Add some oil to the cylinders like PB Blaster, Liguid Wrench or MMO. Let it sit for at least 24 hours before attempting the prying or engaging the starter. Sometimes with a fully charged battery a a few clicks of the key asfter sitting in oil will break it loose.

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Old 09-30-2020, 12:03 PM
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Hi Dave

Thanks for reaching back!

The oil level and clarity actually looks pretty good.

I tried about two weeks of spraying "solution" into the cylinders. First using 50/50 acetone and MMO then using Aerokroil. In the end I broke the pin that the hand crank engages to spin the shaft. Still no budging.

I'm honestly no mechanic so felt it would be best to get it out and to a shop. But if there's an easier way....

tom
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Old 09-30-2020, 01:45 PM
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You can't really generate enough pressure twisting against that pin.

If you can get a piece of flat stock or even angle iron between the flywheel bolts you can give a much bigger twist and even a little shock from light banging. Always go one direction and then the other.

Another much better way is to remove the starter and using the starters hole protected with a block of wood or plastic to protect the hole then you can get a small pry bar against the flywheel teeth and give a twist, again one direction then the other. If you get a little movement it will work loose. This will give you the most leverage by far!!!

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Old 09-30-2020, 03:07 PM
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Excellent suggestions! At this point I def got nothing to lose. Will give these a shot. Plus..the aerokroil has had about 4-5 days more time to soak. Who knows!
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:21 PM
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Excellent suggestions! At this point I def got nothing to lose. Will give these a shot. Plus..the aerokroil has had about 4-5 days more time to soak. So..Who knows ... just might get it.

t
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Old 09-30-2020, 06:42 PM
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Agree completely with Dave. Helped a guy earlier this year to free one up. I didn't get anywhere with the penetrating oil so asked him to pick up some acetone and transmission fluid.

I mixed 1/3 transmission fluid with 2/3 acetone...very light consistency and poured it in the plug holes. NOTE: if you do that take the carb off because it WILL flow into the carb and you will have carb issue when it comes time to start it. I think you said it wasn't started in a couple of years so the fuel, filters and a carb cleaning will be necessary anyway...so take it off.

Put a cup or something underneath where the carb is mounted under the exhaust manifold. Pour you mixture in the top end and wait overnight. Small movement back and forth on the crank and when it starts moving a little bit add a little more of your mixture. Sometimes it will move 1/8 of an inch then go back and forth.

Can be repeated.....oll changes will be required after doing this because acetone and oil are not buddies....we will deal with that when you get it moving and see where you are with it. Looks like a decent engine....hopefully it won't be too bad.

...and welcome to the forum.

Mo
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Old 09-30-2020, 09:53 PM
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Is this a tool that can turn the flywheel from the starter side with starter removed?

Welcome to the forum. I am shaking down a 1974 Pearson 30 Atomic 4. What a gift MMI, this forum, its active members, and trove of threads have been. Best with your A4 journey. Welcome chance to exchange Pearson 30 notes.

Question for Dave....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
You can't really generate enough pressure twisting against that pin.

If you can get a piece of flat stock or even angle iron between the flywheel bolts you can give a much bigger twist and even a little shock from light banging. Always go one direction and then the other.

Another much better way is to remove the starter and using the starters hole protected with a block of wood or plastic to protect the hole then you can get a small pry bar against the flywheel teeth and give a twist

Dave, is that what this tool is used for?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WtZhZds7jFveSBNr9

This came with my Pearson 30 Atomic 4 and I wonder what purpose it serves. Thank you. Tim


, again one direction then the other. If you get a little movement it will work loose. This will give you the most leverage by far!!!

Dave Neptune
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommysails View Post
Hello

Certainly doesn't look like a 50 y/o engine...
Tom

welcome!! This is a very very very good looking engine. Many of us here would dream to have one like this; God bless the PO who got that one overhauled, and kept it this way.
Now of course the goal is to get it free. Be patient, try the 1/3 2/3 mix, and let it seat for several weeks if needed, coming regularly to try to move it after having removed the starter. Every minuscule move will help your mix slowly get to the corroded piston surface and will slowly make its way. You will get there!

If the meantime, while you solve the freezing issue, get the MM manual, learn the engine components, get the spare parts required to get it running. 5 years on the hard, you can already start by changing your water pump impeller, service your carburetor, check your fuel tank situation (clean it, along with all fuel lines), get new fuel filter, clean your points (if applicable), get new spark plugs etc etc....
This forum is full of people who add at the beginning 0 knowledged of such engines or how to maintain it, and are now fully capable of servicing it, but more important to troubleshoot issues and solve them when sailing, when it becomes a Safety device!!

And again, welcome !!
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBSmith View Post
Welcome to the forum. I am shaking down a 1974 Pearson 30 Atomic 4. What a gift MMI, this forum, its active members, and trove of threads have been. Best with your A4 journey. Welcome chance to exchange Pearson 30 notes.

Question for Dave....
Tim that sure looks like the hand crank to spin the shaft on the flywheel. Seats onto pins on the shaft. Should turn the wheel counter clockwise (on mine anyway) I ended up shearing the pins.
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Old 10-01-2020, 09:04 AM
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Moyer rebuild?

Well, there are certainly some MMI parts on that engine, but I'm not certain it was an MMI rebuild.

Get the number off the block and give Ken a call with that number, the PO's name and a rough idea of the year it may have been rebuilt, and he should be able to help you.

Bill
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Old 10-01-2020, 10:16 AM
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Tim, no that is a starting handle. It will turn the engine in only one direction and once the engine starts the handle is forced away so it does not wind up your arm!

It is the pin that won't absorb enough torque to break stuck rings loose, it takes lots of force in BOTH directions.

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Old 10-01-2020, 08:39 PM
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I won't digress from your issues...tried to align with pins early on...didn't work..

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommysails View Post
Tim that sure looks like the hand crank to spin the shaft on the flywheel. Seats onto pins on the shaft. Should turn the wheel counter clockwise (on mine anyway) I ended up shearing the pins.
Still curious. Pausing inquiry as not to distract from unsticking your beautiful motor. It seems like there are so many stories here of patience, lubrication, and regular focused pressure in both directions paying off. Seems like the our P30's surprisingly have "better" access that some of the other 27 to 30 footers.

Best wishes breaking her free in place. Will be following. Stay well, Tim
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:45 PM
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Starting handle ok....so I will need to revisit getting it to seat..pausing inquiry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Tim, no that is a starting handle. It will turn the engine in only one direction and once the engine starts the handle is forced away so it does not wind up your arm!

It is the pin that won't absorb enough torque to break stuck rings loose, it takes lots of force in BOTH directions.

Dave Neptune
Got it. Both of you say it should fit the pins. When I am not on more critical things will see if I can get it to seat at another time.

Thank you. Stay well.

Now sending lubricating thoughts to get this pretty engine unseized....
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:11 AM
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Removed starter last night and using the pry bar in the teeth I can get about 4-5 mm in each direction..back and forth. And, I'm going to rig 2 x 9/16 sockets (longer ones) on the bolts around the flywheel and use a long bar between them to try twisting the wheel as was suggested earlier.

Patience and lubrication..I got all winter I guess
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:29 AM
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make sure to try to spray the valves too (even if you probably do it anyway when trying to reach the piston rings). They may be sticking too...

a stupid question-verification: is your engine in neutral, and your shaft rotates freely? Just to make sure it is not in gear on a blocked shaft....

Good luck and patience!
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Old 10-11-2020, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surcouf View Post
welcome!! This is a very very very good looking engine. Many of us here would dream to have one like this; God bless the PO who got that one overhauled, and kept it this way.
Now of course the goal is to get it free. Be patient, try the 1/3 2/3 mix, and let it seat for several weeks if needed, coming regularly to try to move it after having removed the starter. Every minuscule move will help your mix slowly get to the corroded piston surface and will slowly make its way. You will get there!

If the meantime, while you solve the freezing issue, get the MM manual, learn the engine components, get the spare parts required to get it running. 5 years on the hard, you can already start by changing your water pump impeller, service your carburetor, check your fuel tank situation (clean it, along with all fuel lines), get new fuel filter, clean your points (if applicable), get new spark plugs etc etc....
This forum is full of people who add at the beginning 0 knowledged of such engines or how to maintain it, and are now fully capable of servicing it, but more important to troubleshoot issues and solve them when sailing, when it becomes a Safety device!!

And again, welcome !!

Hi Guys,

A little update..finally removed the valve cover to find a bit of a mess. At forward cylinder the piston is up and you can see the metal top pretty clean. Second cylinder piston is down..and fairly clean. Third cylinder piston is down and the cylinder was packed with a sand/sawdust like substance which i have scooped out. Furthest aft (lowest) cylinder I have no idea where the piston is..and they cylinder is packed with what looks like almost cement. I'd have to chisel or drill it out to reach the piston.

Any idea what would have created these substances over 5 years + of sitting? Ethanol gone bad? salt water and oil?

Is it time to give up on this motor?

Needless to say I still can't get anything to move.

Thanks for any advice or experience !
Tom
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Old 10-11-2020, 02:36 PM
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Tom, that does look pretty bad, however I have seen worse come back.

The big issue for getting your pistons "unstuck" is the crankshaft position. So that pretty much makes using a "Dead Blow" and some soft wood problematic. Since you have good access to the flywheel I suggest most of your efforts start there. And due to the position of the crankshaft you have very good leverage working on the flywheel end.

Now that you can see the pistons keep at moving the flywheel. If you can grap the flywheel that you state has some movement and rock it "BACK & FORTH" vigorously, then pry both ways against the flywheel teeth~~repeat~~repeat~~repeat etc. If the movement increases at all there is hope for the engine.

Patience and effort.

Dave Neptune
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Old 10-11-2020, 02:46 PM
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Hi, Tom:

Does that sand/sawdust stuff dissolve (even partially) in gasoline?

Any chemists among us who would be willing to take a look? I could stick a sample under a microscope, but that's about it.

Bill

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Old 10-11-2020, 03:16 PM
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So you removed the head, not the valve cover... and what a mess! But it is not as bad as it looks: once you remove that unknown Crap/material (being very careful not to mark the sleeves), You will be much much more efficient with your MMO/ ATF / Acetone / whatever product you use. This mix - solid paste was likely preventing your product to reach the rings anyway.

With this strange material you have everywhere, I would strongly recommend to open the valve cover for inspection / cleaning, and potentially remove the valves if access allows for it. I let the MVP give their opinion here. At least, trying to be very careful not to mark the seats (Pry with plastic tools / woods), try to lift the valves to make sure they are not stuck, and spray MMO in large quantities

the big unknown is how much of that material is not in your manifold+lift+exhaust system / in your carburetor etc... to be investigated!!

But once you finish your cleanup, back to lube/wait/force/lube/wait cycle and patience and you will get it to move!
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Old 10-11-2020, 04:53 PM
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Looked better on the outside.

Yeah, it looks bad now, but don't give up. This is going to be one the great resurrections on this forum. Follow the help you get here. Once you get it cleaned, oiled and moving, the path to recovery is clear. These engines can come back from a lot. There are many stories on this forum of seized engines brought back to life. Thanks for the photos and please keep us posted. The mystery 'sawdust' in the third cylinder looks like oily salt water rust evaporated over 5 years. Good Luck!
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:26 PM
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Wow! Hard to believe that muck in the cylinders.
Recommend you a) remove the manifold and make sure the inlet/outlet passages are clear, b) remove the cover plate over the tappets and check out that area, and c) remove the large pipe plug under the carb and stick one of those smartphone camera probes into the oil pan. Use the probe directly and also with the 45 deg mirror. See what you see.
I caution you to go easy on the gear teeth in the flywheel. I'd hate to break a tooth and have to replace the ring gear. Much easier to replace a bent flywheel stud.
Doubt if it's the aluminum piston that's corroded. More likely the piston rings are stuck to the cylinder wall. Pistons #1 and #4 are at TDC, so any rotation of the crank is trying to pull them down. While holding some torque on the crankshaft, I'd encourage those pistons to move down by tapping on them. Take a short piece of 2x4 and relieve the center so you're hitting the edge of the piston (don't want to collapse the crown) and give #1 and #4 some 'encouragement to move'.
On the plus side, the small flywheel motion that you're seeing now indicates to me that your bearings are in good condition. Your rings are stuck. The motion you're seeing is due to clearance between the rings and the piston, and clearances at the bearing at both ends of the piston rods.
I think you have a good engine. Worst case I can see is that you take the engine home, remove the oil pan and crankshaft, then drive the pistons out.
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Old 10-12-2020, 12:11 AM
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I would take the crank out and you have access to both sides of the pistons. Who knows what you will find at the crank.....
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