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Old 03-31-2021, 08:38 PM
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Valves revealed.... photos.

Shake, Shake, Shake was the thread that started at the very beginning, but now I am in the engine... I've removed the manifold, valve cover, etc. and must decide if there is anything I should actually do in there! My question today is about the two valves that have shiny rings... the photo shows the 3rd (on the left) through 8th (aftmost) exhaust valve on the right. So 8 seems to be stuck up? Number 3 is touching against the tappet (tight, holds it from revolving), is that anything? See anything of interest? Lots of MMO that I put down the plug holes.
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Old 03-31-2021, 08:53 PM
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Furthest one back, on the right in the pic, is stuck. The spring is still compressed and it's not seated on the lifter. I can't really see the others really close. What you need to do is just remove the coil wire, shut off your raw water, and turn the engine over. Remember, if you have electronic ignition don't leave the key in the on position...always turn if all the way off once you have turned it over. Don't want to burn out your EI.

You want to see all valves and springs move. The lifters, come up, move the valve, all springs compress, as the stroke changes, the springs pull the valves back down onto the lifter. Keep in mind there's a slight gap, I'd have to look that up, but it's done with a feeler gauge. Those valves should be set if the engine was a runner. I'll let Dave Neptune, Al, Ed and a few more chime in on releasing that valve. I've never had any luck doing it from the side plate and always had to remove the head...they were either broken, seized good or both.
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Old 03-31-2021, 09:11 PM
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Ah, I have not achieved TDC I realize and that is why 3 is on the bottom... I also think the springs look really wonky in that photo, but they don't in person.
I will be turning it over to look too. Thanks.
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Old 03-31-2021, 09:12 PM
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Good grief, why did the photo upload upside down? But actually, it was a helpful way to look at it?
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Old 03-31-2021, 09:44 PM
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here is something that stuck in my head when I read it - try seafoam

https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...92&postcount=5

worth a try

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Old 03-31-2021, 10:11 PM
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All I see is that one valve stuck. You are there now with the side of the engine. Did you ever try the acetone mixture prior to this? Quite frankly speaking, if that didn't free it you just may have to pop the head off.
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Old 04-01-2021, 01:41 AM
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Did you try the allen wrench trick through the spark plug hole now that you know the which valve is the culprit?

Mo and Peter thought are spot on you need an more aggressive penetrating lubricate than WD-40. I've used Seafoam as well, but you will need to way to spray it on the valve so it will run down the stem into value bushing. I've had good luck with PB-blaster and it comes with a nice spray tube (like WD-40).
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Last edited by ronstory; 04-01-2021 at 01:10 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-01-2021, 07:12 AM
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great pics!
I agree with the previous comment:
- make sure water valve and ignition is off, and slowly turn the engine by hand, watching all the valves: you want to make sure that all valves go up and down; here there is clearly one stuck (as expected).
- spray your favorite lubricant / sprayfoam etc... on the springs, but also through the manifold holes (as you have great access to the lower valve guides).
- on the blocked valve, gently scrap + brush the crude on the spring.
- Moreover, and this is my personal advice only: once you have sprayed a good amount of the right product, set the tapet of the blocked valve on the low position (by rotating the engine manually, in order to have as much room as possible), and with a pair of small vice grip, grab the very bottom of the valve stem (below the spring), and try to gently rotate+shake it (making sure not to bend it). With some luck, that should allow the valve to get loose.


After all valves are freed and moving, best is probably to check the gap. Let's see what the other think, but in my mind, cranking the engine with the starter a few extended times (with water valve closed, fuel pump disconnected, ignition off) may be a good thing to make sure the previously blocked valve moves up and down a few dozens times to hit its seat and break any remaining gunk before you check the gaps. Other Afourians, opinions?
Good luck!

PS: and best pratice any time you work around those valves: put a couple small pieces of rags on the oil drain holes at the bottom of this cavity, just in case something gets loose. And make sure to remove them before closing the hatch
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Old 04-01-2021, 10:28 AM
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Another way

If you can still spin the engine with the starter or even by hand do this, Since the valve is stuck in the up position cranking or spinning the cylinder through the cycles do you see the valve moving up at all? If not get an .030 feeler gage and place it between the stem and the lifter as if you were adjusting the valve and spin her through, the feeler gage should move the valve the additional .030 "up" and if it does you now have it "broken loose" so getting it looser becomes easier.
Have done this before with mostly success.

If you get it moving at all it should free up. Pay attention to the valve if it starts to move any down and then gets pushed back up even a tiny bit working it will free it then keep it lubed through the fuel for a while.

If no starter just roll the engine back and forth with the cam high spot going back and forth contacting the valve with the additional lift of the feeler gage.

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Old 04-01-2021, 01:13 PM
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Mr Wizard to the rescue again. I never thought of using a fat feeler gauge and rotating the crank to push the valve up farther to break it free. Genius!

This is the difference of a paid professional vs want-to-be-a-talented amatuer.
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Last edited by ronstory; 04-01-2021 at 01:15 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 04-01-2021, 10:15 PM
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Okay, now I'm spending time just spraying and prodding using the suggestions above, a bit each day. I am glad I am practicing spraying with the less severe products before trying acetone mix - 'cause I'm getting stuff all over... there are so many techniques to develop. Now then, I'd still like to know if anyone can tell me what those two shiny bands are under tappet of the two valves?
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Old 04-02-2021, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDO View Post
Okay, now I'm spending time just spraying and prodding using the suggestions above, a bit each day. I am glad I am practicing spraying with the less severe products before trying acetone mix - 'cause I'm getting stuff all over... there are so many techniques to develop. Now then, I'd still like to know if anyone can tell me what those two shiny bands are under tappet of the two valves?
What you call the shiny rings seem to be the cylinders of the valve tappets in the top position
https://moyermarine.com/product/valv...al_07-0_201-0/
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Old 04-02-2021, 05:50 PM
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DDO, did you ever try the allen wrench trick to help push down the valve?
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Old 04-02-2021, 08:44 PM
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Ok, now I'm all caught up on all the suggestions... and no progress on the stuck valve using the various methods. So I pulled the head off. Would have pulled the thermostat for its annual exam anyway and who doesn't want a chance to paint the alternator bracket? Odd, I thought it would be more difficult but all the nuts came off and I easily lifted it straight up after a few screwdriver "wedges" placed and wiggled. Did not expect that! Someone has worked on this engine before me - but I've had it since 2005. The nuts were not all the same size, right side 9/16 but left side smaller and with washers. (I'm so confused...) I took a photo pre-cleanup for you. Black sooty everywhere but not seawater damage etc.
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Old 04-02-2021, 08:57 PM
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Congrats! Anytime you can get all the nuts off without a stud or two coming along as well, is a good day. And having the head come off just minor coaxing... you have used up all your luck for today.
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Last edited by ronstory; 04-02-2021 at 09:05 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 04-03-2021, 07:43 AM
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Once you have removed the head gasket and cleaned the surfaces shoot us another pick...just so we can have a look for cracks. I would not remove any studs that are in the block...clean around them. You will likely have her up and running a couple of hours after getting your parts.

Now you can turn it over and see exactly what your valves are doing...good job.
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Old 04-07-2021, 04:10 PM
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I'm cleaning off the parts and each day trying the solvents overnight and tap-tap-tapping the valve down again and again, tappet+gauge pushing it back up. It remains very stuck. Acetone/ATF doesn't seem to help. Cleaning up the head (it is "MMI") and it looks good except one long gouge. I've ordered new parts for that valve if I can get it out. How 'bout I try Kroil next?
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Old 04-07-2021, 04:43 PM
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Kroil isn't as good as the acetone and ATF...so when you say tap, what do you mean. I'd drive the acetone down around it then get a punch and hammer...1/4 inch flat punch in center of valve and give it the smack...about as hard as you would tap somebody on the chin bothering your kid...smack...dead center on the valve. It will go...it just doesn't know it yet. Just have a look in through the side plate and ensure there is space for it to move (in case you rotated the engine)...you need that gap there as I saw in the previous picture...your #1 post. Double check that first.

A flat end punch, as seen in picture, placed in the dead center of the valve and give it a smack. Try that.
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 04-07-2021 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 04-07-2021, 08:14 PM
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The valve and spring dropped on its own finally...

Thanks! Well, well, the centered punch worked. Smacking hard onto a flat blade held over the valve didn't and now of course it seems obvious. I did check every time that there is the room for the movement and try to protect the tappet. When it finally went, and for the next many times, it had a loud click. Finally went without noise. So, thanks much for the tip. Tonight I am just leaving it with the spring down full so it can recall what that feels like. I am thinking of pulling the valve out to inspect and then might as well replace it.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:36 PM
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Here is a thread that my help with cleaning the valve and guides if you go to the "next level" of disassembly.

https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...ad.php?t=10482

That said, you do seem to be a curious one.
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Old 04-08-2021, 12:16 AM
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If you are able to zoom in on the photo, you see the pistons' tops have engravings on them -- numbers: 1,2,3,4, but also "Front" and an arrow that points to the aft end of the engine. That made no sense to me or 4 would be 1. Just another thing that made me curious. I'll be moving on to "valve replacement" info found in the other threads and the manuals. Followed by "valve adjustment". In the course of reassembling the engine I may start a new thread, but as for this one, I guess it concludes. Thanks all for wonderful help.
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Old 04-08-2021, 11:31 AM
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The back of the engine is the flywheel end and the trans runs off the front.

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Old 04-08-2021, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
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The back of the engine is the flywheel end and the trans runs off the front.
I'll add that machine shops always consider the timing gears to be on the front of the engine and number the cylinders starting there.
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Old 04-09-2021, 04:12 AM
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Tonight I am just leaving it with the spring down full so it can recall what that feels like. I am thinking of pulling the valve out to inspect and then might as well replace it.
now that you have done 98% of the work (removing head and manifold), just get the valves out to clean them, clean valve guides, and potentially a quick seat lapping. It is relatively easy to do, and should not require spare parts. This should restaure some more compression. Based on how stuck the valve was, a few keepers will very likely be stuck too. See my overhaul thread, post 67 and following, on how to use Don's technique to remove stubborn keepers
https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...t=11241&page=3
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Old 04-09-2021, 06:47 AM
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I agree, you are there now so removing them all, cleaning everything up and re-seating / lapping them would be a great move. Inspect valves for signs of cracks as well, if in doubt use a magnifying glass. Worked on one last year that a valve had broken off and close inspection showed it had a crack for a while before it broke.

Personally, I always have trouble with keepers removing and installing keepers. You will need to place a rag or paper towel and block any pieces from falling into the base pan...very important. Luckily, I have a mechanic buddy that put in the keepers for me the few times I had to get them out...even for friends. He has good gear and it takes him minutes.

All the best.
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