Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Drive Train / Propellers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 66.87.145.93
Old 05-16-2016, 05:41 PM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
motor shaft vibration

We did a sea trial on a 1975 C&C 33 on Saturday. The engine which is supposed to only have 150 hours on it vibrates badly at near full throttle. The surveyor said it is due to shaft alignment causing it to rub on the hull.

What should this cost to repair? Trying to decide what to take off our offer.

Thanks
Jessica
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 05-16-2016, 09:45 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

That depends on whether you plan to do the work yourself or have a yard do it. If it is simply a case of moving the engine into correct alignment most yards will charge 2 to 3 hours labor. But if the shaft and cutless are bad you are looking at a haul out and maybe $500 in parts for openers. The surveyor should be able to give more information from the short haul.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to hanleyclifford For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-16-2016), Mark Millbauer (05-16-2016)
  #3   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 05-16-2016, 10:45 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
The chances of the propeller rubbing on the hull are slim to none. The worst cases of vibration I've seen have been due to a bad propeller. Second cause is a bend in the aft end of the shaft. A bad alignment will move the shaft and engine around a bit, but won't really shake the whole boat - bent shaft or bad propeller will!
Tough to tell whether it's a shaft bend or the propeller - usual approach is to check the shaft (fairly easy), and if that's good replace the propeller.
Shafts get bent often (and struts bent/broken) by poor placement of slings when hauling. Props usually get damaged by hitting things in the water under power.
I'd take $1000 off your offer. If the owner doesn't like that, have the owner fix the problem. There are lots of boats out there for sale - why buy a known problem?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Al Schober For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-16-2016)
  #4   IP: 66.87.145.93
Old 05-16-2016, 10:51 PM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The Surveyor said the shaft and cutlass looked good. I think the prop was good also. The vibration was between 6000-6500 rpm. Correction: could have been 6-6.5 knots. I'm new to marine engines.

Last edited by Jm2fly; 05-17-2016 at 07:12 AM. Reason: Newbe idiot
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 05-16-2016, 11:04 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
Fact - the boat has a vibration problem.
Looking good doesn't count. To check a shaft, you have to remove the propeller, remove the shaft from the boat (usually, there are exceptions), and use a dial indicator on the fwd and aft ends of the propeller taper (also checking intermediate points).
Is your surveyor working for you or for the seller? It's starting to sound like this is a surveyor recommended by the broker (if the boat sells, he gets a cut). Get your own surveyor!
Not getting a good feeling about this. Walk away from this one?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Al Schober For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #6   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 05-16-2016, 11:05 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
BTW, the Atomic 4 will self destruct before things hit 6000 RPM. More good info from the surveyor???
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Al Schober For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #7   IP: 72.218.169.134
Old 05-17-2016, 12:02 AM
alcodiesel's Avatar
alcodiesel alcodiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 293
Thanks: 48
Thanked 68 Times in 52 Posts
self destruct.

I concur with that: 6 to 6500 RPM on an Atomic4??! That's way past red line in my book.
__________________
Bill McLean
'76 Ericson 27
:valhalla:
Norfolk, VA
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to alcodiesel For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #8   IP: 68.111.9.73
Old 05-17-2016, 01:21 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jm2fly View Post
The Surveyor said the shaft and cutlass looked good. I think the prop was good also. The vibration was between 6000-6500 rpm.
I look good but I can't run worth a s**t.
Was the boat out of the water when this determination was made? Is there an Atomic four engine in the boat? It sounds like the tachometer is set for an 8 cylinder engine not a 4 cylinder engine. An Atomic four will self destruct way before it gets to 6000 RPM - somewhere just over 3000 RPM - as others have noted. IMO the surveror wouldn't know an A4 if it jumped up and bit him in the ass.
Buyer beware.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JOHN COOKSON For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #9   IP: 66.87.145.93
Old 05-17-2016, 07:10 AM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Red face

I could be wrong about the RPM thing. I haven't gotten the survey report yet. I'm a newbe at this. Maybe it was 6-6.5 knots. Sorry about the misinformation. I do remember we hit 6.6 knots and it smoothed out.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 66.87.145.93
Old 05-17-2016, 07:15 AM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
I look good but I can't run worth a s**t.
Was the boat out of the water when this determination was made? Is there an Atomic four engine in the boat? It sounds like the tachometer is set for an 8 cylinder engine not a 4 cylinder engine. An Atomic four will self destruct way before it gets to 6000 RPM - somewhere just over 3000 RPM - as others have noted. IMO the surveror wouldn't know an A4 if it jumped up and bit him in the ass.
Buyer beware.

TRUE GRIT
No, this was during the sea trial. Sounds like we may need it hauled out. Do you really look good?😜
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 05-17-2016, 10:55 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jm2fly View Post
No, this was during the sea trial. Sounds like we may need it hauled out. Do you really look good?��
When you get the survey report post it. We would like to read it.
I think you are spot on when you say the boat needs to be hauled out. The only way to address under water issues is to haul the boat. After the haul out you will know what you are dealing with and if you want to continue with the purchase and what a fair price is.
BTW was someone up the mast to survey the rigging?

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JOHN COOKSON For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-17-2016)
  #12   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 05-17-2016, 12:57 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Any decent purchase survey includes a short haul for bottom inspection at the buyer's expense, generally scheduled the same day as the survey. If you are serious enough about this boat to invest in a proper survey, please take lots of pictures and post them here. We have many experienced members who can point out things others may have missed. In your pictures include the prop shaft, prop, strut and other things like the forward edge of the keel, hull to keel joint, thru-hulls, hull surface and rudder. Each of those may provide telling evidence of a problem or maybe even confirm no problems.

And depending on what is uncovered if anything, don't get emotionally attached to the boat just yet, there will be plenty of time for that later. Know when it's time to walk, it is your only power.

Another thing I do when pre-surveying boats for friends is open the bilge hatch and stick my nose in there for a good sniff. I did that on a C&C Cruising 39 and in 10 seconds advised the buyers there was a diesel leak, an engine coolant leak and the previous owners likely had a cat on board. They ultimately bought the boat, found and repaired a diesel leak, found and repaired a coolant leak and found a plastic shampoo bottle that had spilled its contents under the aft berth leaving fermented residue on the hull (the urine smell). All that after a 10 second sniff.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #13   IP: 66.87.145.93
Old 05-17-2016, 02:12 PM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
When you get the survey report post it. We would like to read it.
I think you are spot on when you say the boat needs to be hauled out. The only way to address under water issues is to haul the boat. After the haul out you will know what you are dealing with and if you want to continue with the purchase and what a fair price is.
BTW was someone up the mast to survey the rigging?

TRUE GRIT
No one went up the mast. It seems in Superior they overlook a few things maybe.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 66.87.145.93
Old 05-17-2016, 02:14 PM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
We took $3200 of our original offer. We'll see if they accept.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 05-17-2016, 03:23 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
jm2fly, As far as rigging goes, the corrosion of wire is 'usually' at deck level, and the top of the rig is pristine, except for all the bees & spiders. However, there can be failures at any point along the route, and I would want to check out spreaders/brackets, etc.

We also have salt water around here, which can rust even the best stainless to some degree (hence the issues with fittings at deck level..the rain keeps the others pretty clean and corrosion free.)

I am not a professional rigger by any means, but I've been up a few in my day.

Good luck and we'll be here to help you with the A-4!
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #16   IP: 66.87.145.93
Old 05-17-2016, 03:32 PM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
jm2fly, As far as rigging goes, the corrosion of wire is 'usually' at deck level, and the top of the rig is pristine, except for all the bees & spiders. However, there can be failures at any point along the route, and I would want to check out spreaders/brackets, etc.

We also have salt water around here, which can rust even the best stainless to some degree (hence the issues with fittings at deck level..the rain keeps the others pretty clean and corrosion free.)

I am not a professional rigger by any means, but I've been up a few in my day.

Good luck and we'll be here to help you with the A-4!
This is a fresh water boat in Lake Superior.
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 71.178.85.60
Old 05-17-2016, 06:21 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
jm2fly...understood. I may not have made that clear in my post. I think salt corrosion is the biggest issue with rigging. I am in brackish water, and about 75 miles from the ocean..the folks on the left coast or New England have it much worse than us. Again..I am not a professional, these are my own observations. Maybe it is not standard practice to climb the rig on a freshwater boat.

A fresh water boat has a lot less issues than a salt water boat!
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #18   IP: 73.255.216.151
Old 05-17-2016, 07:22 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
A professional survey includes a trip aloft, regardless of salinity.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to romantic comedy For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #19   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 05-17-2016, 07:26 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Did you or the surveyor check the oil dipstick? This is real easy to do. If there is water in the oil back off on the purchase and let us know. It could be major or minor. We'll tell you what to do and how to do it next. ( A pressure test to determine if the water is in the oil due to a cracked block)

TRUE GRIT

Another thing you could do is have a diver check for play in the cutless bearing and any other monkey business going on under the boat. This is tricky to do in the water and may not work. The best boat area under water survey is done with the boat hauled out.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JOHN COOKSON For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-17-2016)
  #20   IP: 66.87.145.93
Old 05-17-2016, 07:44 PM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Did you or the surveyor check the oil dipstick? This is real easy to do. If there is water in the oil back off on the purchase and let us know. It could be major or minor. We'll tell you what to do and how to do it next. ( A pressure test to determine if the water is in the oil due to a cracked block)

TRUE GRIT

Another thing you could do is have a diver check for play in the cutless bearing and any other monkey business going on under the boat. This is tricky to do in the water and may not work. The best boat area under water survey is done with the boat hauled out.
Yes we pulled the dipstick.
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 107.0.6.150
Old 05-17-2016, 08:33 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking FWIW

I learned early on that most surveyors are mostly working for insurance companies and when they look at a boat they are primarily interested in producing an insurability recommendation. That is not what most of us want. What you want most in a surveyor is "negative neutrality" - your instruction to him should go something like this - "Find out what is wrong with this boat and every reason why I should not buy it".
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hanleyclifford For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #22   IP: 67.237.237.64
Old 05-18-2016, 01:13 PM
toddster toddster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 490
Thanks: 10
Thanked 39 Times in 34 Posts
I dunno... 6 - 6.5 knots, wide open throttle, what we're hearing here is "everything turned up to eleven" and maybe a pinch beyond hull speed.

When my boat is operated like that, there is tremendous force on the rudder. Lots of potential for vibration from all sorts of things that might be loose.

It's impossible to know what we're really looking at here...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to toddster For This Useful Post:
Jm2fly (05-18-2016)
  #23   IP: 66.87.145.140
Old 05-18-2016, 02:24 PM
Jm2fly's Avatar
Jm2fly Jm2fly is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 9
Thanks: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for all your replies. We submitted a lower offer to account for this and a few other findings and hope to work it out soon.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
shaft vibration

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Drive train Vibration - Alignment or Balance? gspeckma Drive Train / Propellers 7 12-21-2014 11:43 PM
Slight Vibration Mo Drive Train / Propellers 14 07-18-2011 10:17 AM
Run Out Shaft Vibration dvd General Interest 6 12-11-2009 11:07 AM
Vibration Eric General Interest 9 09-24-2009 06:05 AM
Vibration under power steved Troubleshooting 5 09-22-2009 10:24 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved