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Old 05-04-2016, 05:33 AM
Antipodean Antipodean is offline
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Fuel flow alarm (Dutton EWDS) at idle -causes?

I am struggling to understand my current situation. Given that my Ericson 35-2 and I are now in New Zealand (no, unfortunately I didn't sail her all that way) where the A4 is not known to the locals I would love to pick the collective wisdom.

As a preventative measure given the problems of ordering parts from the US I installed the EWDS/Dutton diagnostic system last year and it all seemed fine until a few weeks ago. Now when I idle while picking up the mooring or slowing down in traffic the fuel light/buzzer on the EWDS goes off. Increasing rev's silences it, idle back again and after a few mins it returns. There has been no noticeable change in engine performance and there is no missing even while the alarm is sounding. Obviously the simple thing to do is to just remove the alarm wire. But that would defeat the purpose...

Does anyone have any idea of what I can/should check before I start ordering parts from the US/replacing things?

-The fuel hose is Type A1 USCG ethanol resistant 3-4y old and for the last 2y here in NZ has only had pure petrol through it (Ethanol is only in Premium grade Gas in 2 markets here and then only 2 of the 5 main suppliers use it).
-I am using a Facet electric fuel pump that was installed about 6-7y ago.
-The Racor primary and the Moyer in-line secondary filters were replaced when the EDSS was installed.

Thanks for the help
Rob
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Old 05-04-2016, 07:04 AM
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I'm thinking four things:
  1. A fuel pressure gauge will be helpful in chasing this down.
  2. Oil pressure may be dropping low enough at idle to cut out the fuel pump's Oil Pressure Safety Switch (OPSS) which stops fuel pump operation but not low enough to trip the alarm system oil pressure switch. At idle the engine will continue to run for a minute or so on fuel in the carburetor bowl without the pump running. One way to test this is to bypass the OPSS with a jumper wire between the terminals and see if the alarm repeats while keeping an eye on the oil pressure gauge.
  3. The OPSS may be faulty. Same test as above but the oil pressure gauge does not drop below 6 PSI.
  4. The EWDS fuel pressure sensor may be faulty. This is where a fuel pressure gauge is helpful. The pressure sensor comes from its manufacturer preset at 3 PSI and is recalibrated to approximately 1 PSI on a pressure testing apparatus. The gauge will show if the EWDS fuel pressure switch is operating within the designed range.
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Last edited by ndutton; 05-04-2016 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 05-04-2016, 08:00 AM
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I would strongly second the suggestion to get a fuel pressure gauge.
BTW - what is your oil pressure at idle?
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:08 AM
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"Oil temp?"

One clue in helping to determine if oil pressure is involved in this puzzle has to do with the oil temp. You mentioned that the problem shows up while returning to your mooring, and I'll assume at this point that your engine is fully warmed up and your oil is at it's thinnest, resulting normally in lower oil pressure, particularly at idle.
Tom
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:18 AM
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Here is an idea:
Connect a 12 volt light to the pump side of the OPSS. If the light goes out at idle, there is your problem
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Old 05-08-2016, 05:58 PM
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Thank you for all chiming in. Please bear with me as I try to work my mind around each of your suggestions.

Neil,
1, Fuel Pr gauge
This would obviously be ideal but unfortunately here in NZ finding an 1/8" NPT threaded anything is proving impossible. A1/8 BSP is available but given the age of the engine (1976), difficulty in finding parts etc I really don't want to bugger any existing threads or run the risk of damage. For that reason I need to try the other ideas.

2, Oil Pr dec to point OPSS trips & stops pump
My gut tells me this is not the story as the motor will idle away with the alarm sounding for several minutes -at least longer than I have felt OK leaving the alarm sounding. I will get back to the boat later this week on my own and see if it does finally die. I have a jumper on board and will also test that way if it solves the problem. Should also be identified using Joe's light suggestion

3, Bad OPSS (not bad oil Pr but bad OPSS trips early/inappropriate time)
Check as for #2

4, bad fuel Pr sensor
As for #1 this is not something I can test at present so it will need to be last on the list.



Joe,
-Pr gauge
As explained above that is not an option right now.

-Oil Pr when happens
Actually that is a problem that I haven't solved. My gauge is 'flakey' and doesn't always read. I have replaced the wire back to the cockpit, and the cockpit gauge previously but it still comes and goes. I have been monitoring the input/output temps on the hose to the external filter, filter bowl and cooler and they have not shown a change in time to rise (good old hand test), or absolute value (IR thermometer). Solving this little dilemia has been a long-term issue.

Thatch
-Oil temp -happens when I return to mooring
I was a little simple in my description as it actually happened at any point. When I start the engine I have choke on and a little throttle applied. If I drop straight down to an idle it will happen then also (cold oil at that point). Note also that I actually have an in-line oil cooler installed so temp is going to be close to engine temp. Oil is changed at min once per 6 months or every 50h -weather here is like Southern CA so all year round sailing (a real change after 2 decades in the NE).

Joe,
12V light on pump side OPSS
A nice simple idea that avoids me having to hold the meter to the terminals. I will give this a shot. Thanks
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Old 05-08-2016, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipodean View Post
Oil Pressure decreases to point OPSS trips & stops pump
My gut tells me this is not the story as the motor will idle away with the alarm sounding for several minutes -at least longer than I have felt OK leaving the alarm sounding. I will get back to the boat later this week on my own and see if it does finally die. I have a jumper on board and will also test that way if it solves the problem. Should also be identified using Joe's light suggestion
There's every chance you continue to receive fuel via a gravity feed or siphon if the OPSS is stopping the fuel pump and Joe's test light may point you in that direction. The more you report, the more concern I have with your oil pressure at idle. The ultimate solution may be as simple as tweaking the oil pressure adjustment screw.

edit:
Quote:
My [oil pressure] gauge is 'flakey' and doesn't always read. I have replaced the wire back to the cockpit, and the cockpit gauge previously but it still comes and goes.
Can you correlate the coming and going with engine RPM? Does it appear to work at higher RPM and not at lower RPM or is it totally random?
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Last edited by ndutton; 05-09-2016 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 05-08-2016, 07:32 PM
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Thanks Neil. I will test the suggestions and try a tweak to the Oil Pr later in the week and report back then.

Currently all batteries are off and in the shop getting appropriate slow discharge/cranking capacity tests -Another thing that is expensive here! Last Gp27 Deep Cycle marine batteries I bought were at Costco for USD$70 each (Boston, 2011, ~NZD$100). Here in NZ $350-$800 per battery depending on the brand.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:36 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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WOW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The more you report, the more concern I have with your oil pressure at idle.(+1) The ultimate solution may be as simple as tweaking the oil pressure adjustment screw. (+1again)
I could never tolerate squirrelly OP readings. How does one know what the OP really is?
I would get a mechanical gauge and get correct OP readings before doing anything else. In my neck of the woods of you can buy mechanical OP gauges at any "boutique" auto parts store.
Good OP readings are ~40 PSI at cruise RPMs engine warmed up and 1\2 that at idle. Engine cold OP readings will be a bit higher.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:22 AM
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Do we need to mail a care package of plumbing parts to NZ?
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Old 05-09-2016, 07:07 PM
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Neil,
I reread your response and realised I had not responded to the rpm question. Yes it is 100% related to low rpm.

Joe,
I might come back to you on that offer.


As an FYI I wrote to the manufacturer of the Facet pumps and got a response within hours. It looks as if I can go ahead and swap out the new for old pump and with some preventative steps be able to keep the old as a spare (assuming it isn't the problem)

Hi Rob
Storing the old pump should be fine and I would try and put some light oil in the pump and cap the fuel fitting with the caps from the new pump and clean the fuel filter. This will help prevent the internals of the pump from corroding. <NZ contact for deleted>

Paul Puleo
Motor Components, LLC
National Sales Manager

www.facet-purolator.com
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Old 05-09-2016, 07:36 PM
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Don't assume you have an oil pressure gauge problem. You might, I'm not saying for sure you don't but everything thus far points to alarming oil pressure at low RPM and your gauge may be trying to tell you exactly that. Waiting for the test light on the fuel pump circuit results.
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Old 05-09-2016, 07:55 PM
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Neil,
If the oil pressure was low wouldn't the EWDS Oil warning light be coming on also? What I am seeing is that the only light that shows under the low rpm situation is the Fuel warning lamp. The Oil lamp does light up, as expected, prior to starting and goes off after the engine fires. Maybe naively, I thought that as the Oil Pr lamp does not light under the low rpm fuel alarming situation then oil Pr couldn't be the root cause -now that is in no way saying I might not have an improperly set oil Pr situation.

For those commenting on the flakey oil Pr readings I have taken your concern on board and will try to resolve asap. In my defence I have been pegging hope on the fact that until this flakey guage response started the Pr readings had always been within the preferred ranges.

Hmmm

Rob
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:14 PM
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The oil pressure sensor (actually a pressure activated switch) for the EWDS is a completely different device than the OPSS and the trip points may be (read: are likely) different. The EWDS oil pressure switch comes from Cole-Hersee in their basic alarm kit and its trip point is preset. I'm pretty certain the Cole-Hersee switch is not user adjustable. The OPSS comes from an entirely different source and its trip point is preset as well. Looking at the picture in the MMI catalog, it's possible the OPSS is adjustable but I cannot say for certain. I have never heard of anyone adjusting their OPSS trip point and I'm not so sure we should.

It sounds to me like your OPSS is tripping at a higher pressure than the Cole-Hersee alarm switch causing the OPSS to stop the fuel pump thereby causing a fuel system EWDS alarm but the oil pressure isn't quite low enough to trip the oil pressure alarm.

I'm very interested in your results as this proceeds. If we are correct, the EWDS alerted you to a problem you would have never known otherwise.
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
It sounds to me like your OPSS is tripping at a higher pressure than the Cole-Hersee alarm switch causing the OPSS to stop the fuel pump thereby causing a fuel system EWDS alarm but the oil pressure isn't quite low enough to trip the oil pressure alarm.
.
I'd bypass or short across the OPSS until this situation is resolved. This would get one possibility out of the picture while you are looking for a solution.
When I want to bypass the OPSS I pull the push on fitting off the OPSS and insert a small piece of metal, cut to size, between the two wire push on fittings and wrap it with tape.


TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:50 AM
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I will suggest again a test light. Get the engine nice and hot, pull back to idle, and see if the light goes out
It would be incredible random chance for the oil alarm and OPSS sensors to be at the EXACT same level.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:49 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Rob
Have you read the oil system FAQs especially #8?

TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
I will suggest again a test light. Get the engine nice and hot, pull back to idle, and see if the light goes out
Yeah, test light or volt meter between OPSS load terminal and block ground. Either will confirm the OPSS is opening and disabling the electric fuel pump. Once established the real question is why. Is the OPSS tripping at too high a pressure or is the oil pressure extremely low? Only a trusted oil pressure gauge will tell the story. If the OPSS is found to be not opening, that's a different ball game.

As Rob surmised, the EWDS oil pressure sensor suggests the OPSS is out of whack but his oil pressure gauge, if functioning, suggests low oil pressure so Rob is currently receiving conflicting information. He'll figure it out and I'm sure we'll learn quite a bit when he reports back.
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Old 05-10-2016, 06:40 PM
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Going back through this thread again this morning (it is for me) I realise I have misread one Neil's questions (Question #7, response #11). On the rereading I realise your question regarding the rpm related to Oil Pr gauge readings and not the fuel alarm sounding.

Fuel alarm on EWDS: 100% related to rpm. Only happens at idle speeds.

Cockpit Oil Pr Gauge readings appearing & disappearing: Not related to rpm at all.

Some days the Oil Pr gauge will read nothing at all but the external oil filter and connecting hoses all seem to heat up as normal -time and temp (sometimes temp read with IR thermometer, sometimes a 'hand test'). On other days it will display a reading for a while, but later it will show zero, only to return again some time later in the day. Again on these 'come & go' days repeated temperature readings/checks all indicate oil is still flowing through the external filter so there has to be some pressure present.


True Grit,
Thank you for the pointer to the Faq (see Moyer Marine Tech Tips/Faq's and not the Forum Faq's). Something else to check out.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:37 PM
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This tells me the gauge can't be trusted but you already knew that. You're gonna need a gauge before this episode is concluded.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:32 PM
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Talking OPSS Specs

The NAPA (Echlin) switches I use are as follows OP 6620 (1/8" NPT) activates 2-9 psi. The OP 6624 (1/4" NPT) activates 2-7.5 psi.
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Old 11-10-2016, 04:11 PM
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EWDS Fuel Alarm update -Spring commissioning testing

Gentlemen,
After a long and busy winter I have been back on our boat.

Before doing any more investigative work I tidied up the oil filter mounting and pressure gauges. I obtained a mechanical gauge and have confirmed the operating oil pressure falls within bounds. I have not solved the on again/off again electric cockpit gauge issue but I am comfortable that it is not a lack of pressure at idle (idle 25psi cockpit / 35psi mechanical, 1100rpm 35/40, 1500 35/45, 2000 rpm 35/45 -so not the same numbers but they are reproducible (3 days), all Pr readings under no load and after engine had warmed for 5-10min). The oil tubing, filter and oil have all been changed as well.

While none of those changes resolved the issue I wanted to let you all know the testing results you requested and my presumptive/working solution.


-OPSS: seems to be working just fine. Confirmed that it remains open (shorted originally, then checked voltage) and it is not closing when the fuel alarm goes off when the engine is idled back.
-fuel pump was changed out for the spare I have been carrying (moved to a bulkhead mount with added earth wire), as were the primary and secondary fuel filters and the fuel line.
-Fuel Pr sensor seems to not be staying open (tested on one day with voltmeter, still want to do confirmatory testing).
-a mechanical Fuel Pr gauge has been sourced (I could only source a 0-15 so not perfect) and this morning I have received the NPT threaded T fitting needed to connect it into the system.

Plan:
-install fuel Pr gauge and watch. If as suspected the EWDS fuel Pr sensor/switch is faulty then I will need to source a new one. I see there is not one available in the Moyer catalog. Is anyone aware of where they can be sourced and the part number? I assume it is a 1/8 NPT thread but can that be confirmed also?

Thanks again for all your help and guidance.

Rob
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:35 PM
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Let's be sure we are on the same page

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipodean View Post
OPSS: seems to be working just fine. Confirmed that it remains open (shorted originally, then checked voltage) and it is not closing when the fuel alarm goes off when the engine is idled back.
The OPSS contacts are expected to be open at low or no oil pressure and closed as oil pressure rises above approximately 5 PSI. The contacts should not be closed at low oil pressure, exactly as you report, and with the OPSS contacts open you are expected to get a fuel pressure alarm because the OPSS has shut off the fuel pump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipodean View Post
Fuel Pr sensor seems to not be staying open (tested on one day with voltmeter, still want to do confirmatory testing).
The fuel pressure sensor included with the EWDS behaves the opposite of the OPSS, contacts closed at low or no fuel pressure and open as pressure rises above approximately 1 PSI.
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Old 11-10-2016, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The OPSS contacts are expected to be open at low or no oil pressure and closed as oil pressure rises above approximately 5 PSI. The contacts should not be closed at low oil pressure, exactly as you report, and with the OPSS contacts open you are expected to get a fuel pressure alarm because the OPSS has shut off the fuel pump.
The fuel pressure sensor included with the EWDS behaves the opposite of the OPSS, contacts closed at low or no fuel pressure and open as pressure rises above approximately 1 PSI.
Oops. That is what happens when you worked a 16h day before posting. This is indeed why we bounce ideas off the experts. Thanks Neil for catching my errors.

Correction:
I have checked my notes again. What I recorded was that the OPSS shows a voltage reading on both terminals (vs block) at all times engine is running -alarming or not (it had low resistance reading between the terminals, had appropriate voltage detected between either terminal and the block) but with engine off it showed an Overload resistance/no Conductivity reading between the terminals. I did not apparently check for voltage when the ignition was on but the engine not started.

Now that you have told me that the FPS operates the other way round I will need to go back and recheck on board. My recollection is that there was no voltage and no conductivity when the engine was running and the EWDS was not alarming. But, I cannot in good faith interpret my chicken scratch for the alarming situation.

More work needed and I will report back again later.

Rob
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Old 11-10-2016, 10:07 PM
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You should not read any voltage between the fuel pressure sensor non-grounded terminal and ground. The way to test it is by continuity between the sensor terminals.
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