#51
IP: 24.136.67.99
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$.02
Hanley, I agree with Don that something went through the gears as an isolated event and chewed the gears up a bit. I have worked on many gear driven machines and engines and the noise is not conssitant with anything I've heard.
What Russ said about the ole Chevy water pumps really rings a bell for me. You don't have much more to look at for that type of noise other than the w/pump and the trans. I'd pull the cover on the trans and fish for filings there if the water pump idea is naught. I have heard many sprag units (planetary drives) in automatic transmissions make that type of noise and when pulled not be as loose as some worn ones that were still quiet~~just the nature of a planatary drive. Dave Neptune |
#52
IP: 216.115.121.240
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Actually it was Mo that suggested the water pump, I thought my squeak was from the fuel pump. my squeak ended completely when we poured in more gas.
Some thoughts in this thread make me start to think about noise from harmonics like ringing or wheezing that imitates a mechanical noise. Just trying to keep the field open.
__________________
Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1 "Since when is napping doing nothing?" |
#53
IP: 148.170.241.1
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To me, it sounds more like a whistling noise. Like maybe a leak of secondary air in the manifold, or a restriction or leak in the exhaust causing a whistling sound as the air rushes past.
Very hard to say, of course, from just a recorded audio file heard over the internet. Just a thought.
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- Bill T. - Richmond, VA Relentless pursuer of lost causes |
#54
IP: 173.166.26.241
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[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ezf0E8YPQo[/YOUTUBE] This is what it sounded like after I tightened up the accessory drive end play to .002". No other changes were made.
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#55
IP: 24.224.206.117
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Done Deal.
Done deal...good job Hanley.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. |
#56
IP: 38.118.55.125
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Hanley, unfortunately I'm still deprived in terms of hearing your audio track. Are you saying that reducing the end play in your accessory drive took care of the whining sound?
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#57
IP: 24.224.206.117
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I think he got it.
Hi Don,
I couldn't hear it at all on Hanley's latest video.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. |
#58
IP: 107.0.6.242
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The noise changed to a light "clatter" after the reduction of the accessory drive end play but I still hear noise I don't like. The camera is not able to capture the sound well so I am going out and try again with a cell phone as soon as the weather clears. I will do another audio before and after the oil change (15w-40, bought it today). But unless the noise clears to my satisfaction the plan is to take off the gear case for an inspection.
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#59
IP: 107.0.6.242
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If it were not for what I am certain are magnetized metal filings on the tooth (circled in yellow) I would be prepared to tolerate the noises. With a thousand mile trip planned I have to do the tear down and be certain. Is it possible that the .016" crankshaft endplay is allowing the crank to go far enough aft to abrade something in the gear casing?
Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:33 PM. |
#60
IP: 174.65.54.224
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Is it possible for you to get a long version of the noise? A couple of minutes perhaps? Can you get some video, or is that out of your realm? If it's possible, can you get a 360 video/audio view of the engine/noise? Sort of walk around the engine with the camera going?
I think what I'm hearing from the others on this forum (without them saying it) is that they don't have enough info (audio/video) to go on. Also, in the above picture, what I see might just be a lighting trick/issue. Towards the back of the gear I see a bright glint/glitter that I'm not certain isn't just the flash angle focusing in on that spot causing it to be brighter than everywhere else.
__________________
"Jim" S/V "Ahoi" 1967 Islander 29 Harbor Island, San Diego 2/7/67 A4 Engine Block date Last edited by jpian0923; 09-07-2011 at 02:00 AM. |
#61
IP: 38.118.55.125
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Hanley, with the noise now being a light clatter, it looks like you might have the offending beast cornered to where the side load test might once again prove useful. If the clattering is really your (apparently lightly damaged) idler gear, a side load should snug it up enough to at least modify the clicking sound.
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#62
IP: 173.166.26.241
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OK, went out and ran the engine and whining noise still present, actually more like a squeal. Changed oil to 15w-40 diesel. Did not solve the problem but made the rest of the engine quieter so I began listening with a wooden dowel. Got the loudest and most definite signal where the yellow circle indicates. Could this just be an old fashioned water pump bearing-packing-up-problem? Tomorrow I will go back out with my Oberdorfer backup and run a test. Edit: the MM 502 has about 1200hrs (no maintenance).
Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:33 PM. |
#63
IP: 24.224.206.117
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Hi Hanley,
I've never had one apart... I'll park my ears and mix a drink. Good luck with that. It's quite likely you noticed it before it got too bad.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. |
#64
IP: 174.65.54.224
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That's good news.
__________________
"Jim" S/V "Ahoi" 1967 Islander 29 Harbor Island, San Diego 2/7/67 A4 Engine Block date |
#65
IP: 173.166.26.241
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I am cautiously hopeful. Does anybody know what the recommended interval is for replacing the MM 502 bearings? I guess I sort of thought they were indestructable.
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#66
IP: 71.118.13.238
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Longevity
Hanley, I have not seen a recomendation on waster pump bearing replacement intervals but my best guess if your findings are correct it's 1200 hours or so.
Hope this is the fix. RE the magnetic chips. Any engine with those kind of hours and a pan as large as the A-4 will have many chips and pieces of sacraficed, warn and oh KRAP (like what bevelled the gear ) kind of filings in it. The vibration of the engine will magnetize most metals to a certain minor extent. The gears pull a lot of oil past them and keep things stirred up in the pan. To see a few bits klinging to the gear would seem normal to me on an engine like these. That small chamfer on the edge of the gear is in my humble opinion no biggie. Did you ever try dragging a magnet inside the pan to see what all it gathered. I had many people in the past using magnetic oil plugs and or tips on there dip stix panic when they saw bits of metal. At that time I would explain that some is normal and don't worry until it is a bunch and they become noticebly chunkier. Dave Neptune |
#67
IP: 174.65.54.224
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Magnetic oil plug and dipstick...what a great idea. I just stuck a big magnet on my oil pan...I thought I was a genius for doing that.
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"Jim" S/V "Ahoi" 1967 Islander 29 Harbor Island, San Diego 2/7/67 A4 Engine Block date |
#68
IP: 138.88.71.68
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I installed a magnetic oil pan drain plug on my wife's Audi...fortunately, I have not seen any large metal shavings..yet.
For the Atomic 4, a magnetic dip stick would seem cool...since many of us don't actually drain it like a car, stuff getting sloshed around might stick to the dip stick if it were magnetized.
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#69
IP: 174.65.54.224
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Wishlist item???
__________________
"Jim" S/V "Ahoi" 1967 Islander 29 Harbor Island, San Diego 2/7/67 A4 Engine Block date |
#70
IP: 70.91.138.225
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Quote:
Mark |
#71
IP: 24.224.206.117
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Check this tread for oil types...its a start.
Hi Mark,
Read through this thread and there's lots of info on oil. http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...highlight=type
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. |
#72
IP: 70.91.138.225
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Mo,
I remember that thread and I remember another one in which Don mentioned motorcycle oil and SG rated oils as they related to the reversing gear. Here I just wondered whether something particular about the oil Hanley added made the engine run more quietly, or whether the quiet could be attributed to a number of other things. It seems to me the engine should sound the same whether the oil is 30 weight or 40 weight so long as there is sufficient oil each time that isn't too dirty. Am I wrong about that? Mark |
#73
IP: 24.224.206.117
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Hi Marc,
It's basically the thicker viscosity that makes it quieter. I normally run 15W40, however, in June of this year I changed the oil but put 30 weight in. I immediately noted it was noisier...nothing ominous, just louder running. Last week did my oil change and put 15w40 diesel oil back in. I normally change my oil every 20 hours (25 hrs this past change) and it stays clean. When I hear less noise that means there's more oil up around those moving parts. Reversing gear etc all works fine with it also. One thing is for sure, these engines never ever had the quality of oil on the market today.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. |
#74
IP: 173.166.26.241
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Culprit Identified
Once again Hanley has been found guilty of overlooking the obvious. Went out and put in the Oberdorfer backup and the whining is gone. I will send the MM 502 to Moyer Marine for analysis and rebuilding and it will become my spare. Tomorrow I'll be on the phone to Ken to order a new MM 502 to become the primary. Note in the picture that there is no wear to the housing and only scant wear to the cover plate. The impeller is intact except for a few particles - this after 1200 hours of pumping antifreeze half way around the boat! When I ran with the Oberdorfer today I immediately noticed I was running 5 degrees hotter. The rest of the analysis will be done at Moyer Marine. Both Mo and Neil get the gold stars for making the call. Thanks to all for input and making me learn how to do YouTube. Edit - I just noticed that Bill also asked about the water pump.
Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:33 PM. |
#75
IP: 75.68.130.228
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Looks way too clean, maybe it needed some grime
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