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  #26   IP: 174.192.14.225
Old 02-21-2018, 07:30 PM
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Probably Off Topic

Neil:

I wholly agree with your concern over complexity and it’s attendant effect on reliability. But sometimes there’s the inevitable tradeoff - in this case added complexity vs. safety and regulations. You and I are quite comfortable with installing, testing, diagnosing and fixing mechanical, and especially electrical, systems. My first thought on dealing with the ignition protection requirements of the OP’s setup was a relay, but I held back because of the added complexity. Not knowing the OPs electrical knowledge was also a large factor.

However, the many reports of ignition keyswitch and pushbutton failures only reinforces my belief that the common boat 10 amp rated switch in a starter solenoid circuit is asking for trouble. Few people, including some electrical engineers I’ve known, know switches are rated for resistive, inductive, lamp, or motor loads, and why the different ratings. Unfortunately, only the best manufacturers publish this data.

I don’t believe, in general, adding a relay increases complexity and decreases reliability significantly IF AND ONLY IF:
1. Material is chosen correctly and knowledgeably
2. The installation (location of components, mounting, wiring runs, terminations, labeling, etc) is done in accordance with best practices.

But that applies to everything, doesn’t it?
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  #27   IP: 174.192.13.104
Old 02-23-2018, 08:48 PM
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Start Circuit Relay

If you decide to go with a relay in the start circuit, the attached drawing shows one way to do it.

CAVEATS:
1. This is a schematic (it shows how the circuit works).
2. It is NOT a wiring diagram, which would show the actual point-to-point wiring.
3. No protective devices (fuses/breakers) are shown. Remember when adding fuses/breakers: you’re protecting the smallest wire in that leg, not the devices.
4. Wire sizes are not shown. The pushbutton/relay coil circuit will draw less than .2A, so a #14 will do. The circuit with the relay contacts and starter solenoid will draw 12A, so a #10 or #12 might be used, depending on length.

Suggested parts:
1. Blue Sea Contura normally open momentary pushbutton, like the 7930. Or any other ignition protected N.O. momentary pushbutton.

2. If you add the optional LED, the Blue Sea 8172 is rated at 12/24VDC, has an integral resistor, is easily panel mounted, and is generally under $4. The LED is shown connected so it lights up when the relay’s normally open contacts are closed.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/817...2_24V_DC_Green

3. The relay. The TE Connectivity 3-1393303-4 is a normally open 12VDC relay which can handle 60A loads. It is designed for automotive service. Terminations are by 1/4” female push-on terminals. The relay has an integral mounting bracket. Digikey part no. A122266-ND. Only $9.61.

https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...266-ND/5341751

The relay data sheet (all 4 pages) is here:
http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentD...ocLang=English

4. If you add a transient suppression diode across the relay coil (and you should), Digikey will let you have a 1N4005 (Digikey part no. 1N4005-E3/54) for $.23

https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...GICT-ND/868988
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  #28   IP: 69.159.25.32
Old 03-03-2018, 08:02 PM
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Waiting for some coloured wire to come in so can finish. Found that a Grp27 battery box cut down will fit perfectly behind cockpit opening- going to either epoxy or 5200 it in place. The multiple wires running through the vapour glands will also be filled with sealant to plug the little gaps between the wires. And to add wire labels. Wire tidying will happen once installed.

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  #29   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 03-03-2018, 08:04 PM
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Very NICE!
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  #30   IP: 207.6.152.58
Old 03-04-2018, 10:24 AM
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Maybe not specifically applicable to this installation, but I've used these:



Cut the back out leaving a lip that can be used to seal against a bulkhead. Cable glands for entry. And you have the benefit that if you need access to the wiring then you can remove the gasketed lid.

By the way, there are lots of spots on our boats that potentially can get overlooked when it comes to ignition protection, especially with the smaller boats that the A4 was so common .... fuel tank, engine, batteries, DC systems, AC systems ... all 'piled' on top of each other in one big open, interconnected space.

Heck in my C&C 27 ... and just about all C&C models up to the early 80s ... the DC circuit breaker panel is mounted right above the fuel tank (and right behind the sink for that matter). Can't be a good idea!

For example, the fuses that are supposed to be installed in the ignition / starter systems. Is the 60-amp ATC inline fuse holder sold here at Moyer ignition protected? I don't think so.

What about that auto charge relay for our house bank ... ever-so-popular Echocharger? Not ignition protected!
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  #31   IP: 174.192.21.140
Old 03-04-2018, 03:24 PM
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GregH:

Good (and inexpensive) solution, well executed.
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  #32   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 03-04-2018, 03:43 PM
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FYI, I have been using a relay to start the engine for ages. This was not for spark-proofing, more for reliability. The starter button is a ways from the engine and subject to water. There is no real practical way on my 1973 boat to make a totally sealed instrument panel. This solenoid is from Amazon and intended for the raise and lower controls of Mercruiser I/Os.
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  #33   IP: 97.64.155.202
Old 03-05-2018, 04:59 PM
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Okay, as many of you know, my little project, a 1974 Newport 27, includes a complete rewiring. Some of the things I'm dealing with are the same things I've seen mentioned in this thread, such as:
  • The fuse bank/power distribution center is right over the fuel tank in an open GRP cabinet.
  • Non-insulated/non-sealed fittings EVERYWHERE, even on top of the fuel tank and in the bilge.
  • Non-explosion proof switches close to the fuel tank.
  • Battery bank next to fuel tank.

And the list goes on. Did I mention the liberal use of wire nuts down in the bilge area as well? Yeh, it's a mess.

All that being said, since I can't see a way to practically seal away my wiring from my main source of explosive gases, the fuel tank, I can address the concern of vapor ignition a few ways. Most are cost prohibitive. That leaves me with my preferred method I've used for years when designing paint kitchens and even containment on bridge and tank projects .

In my opinion, the most reasonable way is to employ several "Intrinsically Safe" design elements to greatly reduce or eliminate the chance of vapor ignition.

So, what are those design elements? Here's my initial list:
  1. When reasonable, reroute wiring away from vapor sources and/or low lying areas where vapor collect. If possible, no wires below the sole or in the bilge. That's actually easier than I thought since I'm putting in a new headliner.
  2. All terminations are to be sealed, both at wire contact and terminal contact. Using proper crimp fittings with heat-shrink/sealing compound addresses the wiring end, a liberal application of OxGard on the terminal helps with the other part.
  3. Slightly oversize wire to reduce resistance, thereby reducing heat buildup. This one cost a little extra, but I've never had any problems when I do this. The chart calls for 16GA, go with 14GA. It's not hard to do.
  4. Add other sources and devices to increase the ventilation. You need a combustible gas, at the right concentration, in the presence of oxygen and an ignition source to get that "BOOM!" we all wish to avoid. To that end, adding a small vent fan at the top of the fuse box/ power distribution center that draws in outside air and comes on when the main power is turned on is an example of what I mean. That throws the concentration out of whack, making ignition is less likely. We already do that with out bilge ventilation now.

I have more, but those are the big ones. So, now that I've opened myself up to comments, what do you guys feel is wrong with this plan?

Rick
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  #34   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 03-05-2018, 08:48 PM
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Sounds like a decent plan but a couple points of accuracy:
  1. "Non-explosion proof switches close to the fuel tank" Please, ignition proof. There's a difference.
  2. "When reasonable, reroute wiring away from vapor sources and/or low lying areas where vapor collect" Nothing wrong with that but the concern for the USCG and ABYC is components that produce a spark normally like motors, switches, alternators, starters, relays if any, etc. Wires running through an engine or fuel tank space are not considered spark producing.
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Old 03-05-2018, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ram41662 View Post
Okay, as many of you know, my little project, a 1974 Newport 27, includes a complete rewiring. Some of the things I'm dealing with are the same things I've seen mentioned in this thread, such as:
  • The fuse bank/power distribution center is right over the fuel tank in an open GRP cabinet.
  • Non-insulated/non-sealed fittings EVERYWHERE, even on top of the fuel tank and in the bilge.
  • Non-explosion proof switches close to the fuel tank.
  • Battery bank next to fuel tank.

And the list goes on. Did I mention the liberal use of wire nuts down in the bilge area as well? Yeh, it's a mess.

All that being said, since I can't see a way to practically seal away my wiring from my main source of explosive gases, the fuel tank, I can address the concern of vapor ignition a few ways. Most are cost prohibitive. That leaves me with my preferred method I've used for years when designing paint kitchens and even containment on bridge and tank projects .

In my opinion, the most reasonable way is to employ several "Intrinsically Safe" design elements to greatly reduce or eliminate the chance of vapor ignition.

So, what are those design elements? Here's my initial list:
  1. When reasonable, reroute wiring away from vapor sources and/or low lying areas where vapor collect. If possible, no wires below the sole or in the bilge. That's actually easier than I thought since I'm putting in a new headliner.
  2. All terminations are to be sealed, both at wire contact and terminal contact. Using proper crimp fittings with heat-shrink/sealing compound addresses the wiring end, a liberal application of OxGard on the terminal helps with the other part.
  3. Slightly oversize wire to reduce resistance, thereby reducing heat buildup. This one cost a little extra, but I've never had any problems when I do this. The chart calls for 16GA, go with 14GA. It's not hard to do.
  4. Add other sources and devices to increase the ventilation. You need a combustible gas, at the right concentration, in the presence of oxygen and an ignition source to get that "BOOM!" we all wish to avoid. To that end, adding a small vent fan at the top of the fuse box/ power distribution center that draws in outside air and comes on when the main power is turned on is an example of what I mean. That throws the concentration out of whack, making ignition is less likely. We already do that with out bilge ventilation now.

I have more, but those are the big ones. So, now that I've opened myself up to comments, what do you guys feel is wrong with this plan?

Rick
I did some thinking about all the motions required to work on fuel system components when redoing some wiring and plumbing. There are no connections or terminals anyplace near the fuel filter area except some grounds that are exposed in any way. I wanted to make sure working on the fuel filter, fuel pumps, and/or carb presented no chance of hitting something with a wrench that could spark.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:29 AM
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Don't forget to also ventilate batteries as well as possible, especially flooded lead-acid. Proper battery boxes with vent hoses leading outside.
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  #37   IP: 192.186.122.174
Old 03-06-2018, 12:26 PM
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Lookee what finally showed up today!

Now I can get the project done and installed

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Old 03-07-2018, 01:41 PM
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FYI:
I have been using these waterproof (more or less) boxes and cable glands to good effect on my rewiring project. They are pretty cheap from Amazon.
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:48 PM
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Post a link or model number!
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:53 PM
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I would toss a boot on the toggle switch for the final seal. It’s the only spark producer in the box. Fingers crossed that the toggle cover works with a boot.
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marthur View Post
Post a link or model number!
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...DOWP300U&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Glands-Plasti...e+glands&psc=1

And here is the best way to drill holes in those boxes:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I would toss a boot on the toggle switch for the final seal. It’s the only spark producer in the box. Fingers crossed that the toggle cover works with a boot.
That is connecting two data inputs to inhibit the AIS. No where near enough current to spark on that one Good advice for some other ones though.
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Old 03-07-2018, 10:45 PM
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All I saw was a switch . . . .
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Old 05-06-2018, 08:16 PM
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Wire harness done and installed. Will tidy the wires up next weekend. The gauge panel sits more proud than the original alum plate so will have to build a mahogany frame around the gauge area and also work in some sort of removeable/flip-up plexi panel.

And yes the switches need labels still. The left most is the blower, center is the ign on, and the right hand momentary switch is to start the engine. Next weekend will be seeing if I cannot get the engine to start !

So far, I know the blower works, the volt gauge reads 12+ V, the fuel gauge works, and there's 12+ V at the coil pos.

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