Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Drive Train / Propellers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 05-14-2016, 04:46 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Shredded rubber vanes migrate throughout the cooling system until they lodge somewhere and block flow. Typical locations are the elbow that exits the manifold, thermostat or any fitting for that matter, even the exhaust injection fitting.

Good luck chasing down the debris.

edit (shameless plug):
The basic alarm system with the flow sensor enhancement would have alerted you in an instant to the oversight. The EWDS would have alerted you AND told you what the problem was.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 05-14-2016 at 06:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Administrator (05-14-2016), Shrek (05-14-2016)
  #52   IP: 71.178.85.60
Old 05-14-2016, 08:58 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
shrek, to be sure you get them all, you need to recover the same number of vanes that you lost off the impeller...otherwise you won't know for sure if you got them all and some piece may lodge itself (again) down the road at the most inopportune time.
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post:
Administrator (05-14-2016), Shrek (05-14-2016)
  #53   IP: 66.183.144.82
Old 05-14-2016, 11:34 PM
Shrek Shrek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Richmond (Vancouver) BC, Canada
Posts: 68
Thanks: 89
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanks

It seems that somebody up there may just love me. The exhaust seems to have spat out the blockage after some repeated start/stop cycles.
My flow from the exhaust outlet on the transom is as good as ever !
However I will heed both respondents advice regarding checking the obvious spots where things would lodge.

We flew down the Fraser River today on an ebb tide after replacing the impeller and apparently clearing the blockage (hopefully). Lots of black crud came out of the exhaust at the dock before we decided to go for it. The engine behaved well at 1800 rpm for 4.5 hours and as we entered our home base of Point Roberts, Washington State, USA, we throttled back to idle speed in gear approaching our slip. At this point the engine started to sound a little lumpy, stumbling a little bit too. Then, as we turned into our slip, it died, restarted it and it ran, but died again. We had a new jet fitted to the carb and had the carb cleaned out a few months ago, due to a blockage which was causing non starting. I am wondering why, when it idled at the dock for a long period of time prior to our 4+ hr. trip, why wouldn't it idle when hot, at the end of the trip? Performed well all the way throughout the trip. I guess the resistor is doing a good job for the coil as the coil was never too hot to touch !

Any ideas why it would stumble at low revs when hot ?
Reply With Quote
  #54   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 05-15-2016, 08:36 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

The idle system on the Zenith/Bendix carb is one of the most vulnerable to blockage on the carb. The tiny idle holes, one above and one below the throttle bore valve should be checked. Only the thinnest wire or a jeweler's drill bit can do this.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hanleyclifford For This Useful Post:
Shrek (05-15-2016)
  #55   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 05-15-2016, 10:22 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
The good news
A 4˝ hour run without a repeat of the previous chronic coil failure routine is another Rule of 2011 success story. Welcome to the 100%, it's got to feel good.

The not so bad news
Your engine shut down at idle happened at the end of the 4˝ hour run rather than the beginning or middle. Could have been worse.

The not so good news
What Hanley said. The carburetor's idle circuit needs cleaning and here is the operative word, AGAIN.

The bad news
Cleaning the carburetor addresses the symptom and not the cause. Krap in the carb is a problem but where it came from is the bigger problem. Unless you find and remedy the source you'll be doomed to repeated carburetor performance problems and repeated carburetor cleanings. Everything upstream of the carburetor is suspect. Time to inspect and analyze the entire fuel system from the fill plate to the engine. Good time to replace fuel hoses if it hasn't been done in a while.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 05-15-2016 at 10:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
sastanley (05-15-2016), Shrek (05-15-2016)
  #56   IP: 68.111.9.73
Old 05-15-2016, 11:26 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
#1 on getting clean fuel to the carburetor.

Did you try adjusting the idle mixture to see if it makes any difference?

Are you running to rich or to lean at idle? Here's how to tell. After the engine idles for a spell goose the throttle a bit in neutral. This will "unload" any richness in the cylinders and the idle will improve for a spell until the cylinders 'load"up again.

Here's a sort of far out one: The spark advance is sticky. At the initial idle the advance is not advanced and the idle is good. You run the engine at cruise RPM and when it is slowed down the advance stays advanced because it is sticky and the idle is rough.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JOHN COOKSON For This Useful Post:
Shrek (05-15-2016)
  #57   IP: 66.183.144.82
Old 05-15-2016, 12:11 PM
Shrek Shrek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Richmond (Vancouver) BC, Canada
Posts: 68
Thanks: 89
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
It certainly does feel good !

As we cruised beyond the one hour mark I began to wonder if we finally had this coil issue solved. at 1.5 hours I had a little grin inside my head but was still afraid to show it as I did not want to jinx what might not be a totally smooth day on the water, due to the forecasted 20-25 knot winds which were to arrive slightly later in the day after our eta.
Let me explain my apprehensiveness in a little more detail. We start off in a major Canadian river with commercial traffic like car carrying ships going up and down, to or from the Far East, and large barges and tugs going about their business. Then we exit the river at a place called Sand Heads, which can be really ugly if you get it wrong (tides vs. winds = horrid big seas) Then we turn south along the sand flats and have to pass a major BC Ferries terminal, a coal port and all along the way we have these sand flats. There's nowhere to run to if we get in trouble. Yesterday, guess where the wind was coming from? Exactly where we were going, right on the nose, and we were not sailing we were deliberately motoring to prove out the resistor theory once and for all. After repairing the stupidly destroyed impeller in our raw water pump (we are fresh water cooled) we decided there was still enough ebb left to make a go of it and this was a good decision as we flew down the river doing about 7 knots and reduced to as little as 3 knots at times, even 2.5 when hitting larger swells coming right at us on the nose.
The only bummer was this idling issue as we neared our slip. We had the carb cleaned not too long ago in engine hours terms, and the main jet was cleaned out too. I will go over everything with the mechanic again and also install my brand new Moyer s/s sediment bowl, screen and bale, as well as install a secondary in line filter between the pump outlet and carb. What micron rating or brand would you folks suggest?

It was certainly a real smile on my face as we entered our home base after a 20 mile 4.5 hour journey and the coil temp was checked all the way and never so hot that you couldn't hold it for several seconds. I was a little surprised that the resistor wasn't as hot as expected either as I was always able to touch it with one finger and it was never any hotter than the coil.
Thanks to all of the folks who have helped me with these issues. Now that I am a little more relaxed, I will try to post some photographs from the last month, which will show the new rigging, and more importantly for some, the coil solution, and new buss bar which took the weight off the coil and organizes the ignition wiring much more tidily.
Photos to follow.
Reply With Quote
  #58   IP: 66.183.144.82
Old 05-15-2016, 12:38 PM
Shrek Shrek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Richmond (Vancouver) BC, Canada
Posts: 68
Thanks: 89
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Prop size/type

here is my original posting

I have a 1972 Columbia 30 which has an atomic 4 with a Walter V-drive and 2:1 ratio. Under the coil, the engine bears the stamp UJ-5 UF (The U and F are overlapped) as in my attached photo. My question is regarding my prop. It is a 15 x 9 RH prop and the C-30 owners manual called for a 16 x 9 RH prop. Does my prop have to work harder than a 16 x 9 prop to move the boat 9 inches forward, and result in more load on the engine trying to push the boat, or do I simply have less push from the prop?
I also believe my Canadian version of the A-4 to be limited to 15 hp. according to the model number.
My boat walks to port side in reverse and seems vey weak in reverse. Do I need to hold reverse firmly in place whilst backing up, as there is no detent position in reverse? or might I have slippage in reverse, or both ?
I ran all day yesterday at 1800 rpm mostly due to lack of confidence to push her any harder, following my coil problems, but could have probably gone up to wot at closer to 3000 rpm. In neutral she can turn at over 3000 but I never dare go there for more than an instant with a 44 year old motor. My factory manual calls for a 2 blade 16 x 9 RH prop and I have a 15 x 9 RH I also have a v-drive with 2:1 reduction. Would a 3 blade Indigo prop work for me or is that prop only for direct drive motors. Sastanley, are you looking at this ?
Any advice appreciated. BTW even in forward gear at idle speed she really goes well forwards !
GF
Reply With Quote
  #59   IP: 66.183.144.82
Old 05-22-2016, 11:07 PM
Shrek Shrek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Richmond (Vancouver) BC, Canada
Posts: 68
Thanks: 89
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
New problem - there's always something !

Last weekend we motored perfectly for 4.5 hours following the pick up of about 3 gallons of new fuel (with ethanol)

On the way it was pretty choppy and we ran along perfectly.

On arrival inside the breakwater we puttered along towards the right turn into our finger of the marina, and as we neared the left turn into our slip I throttled back intending to engage reverse to slow us down a little. The A-4 spluttered to a halt and was difficult to start, but did so briefly before failing a second time as we neared the end of our slip and came to an abrupt but not damaging stop as we contacted the dock with the bow.

The mechanics determined water in the fuel sediment bowl and probably in the fuel tank.

We have since drained the tank as far as possible, the separating filter and the sediment bowl. Today we replaced the fuel with new fuel, 8 gallons 5 of which is premium and ethanol free gas. Started and ran right up to operating temp, then still would not idle. I am at my wits end ! HELP ! Only recent change is the new fuel and the recent addition of a 1.1 ohm resistor to save the coil - and it seems to be doing its job very well indeed !

Gordon.
Reply With Quote
  #60   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 05-22-2016, 11:42 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

One recent change is water in the fuel as determined by your mechanics. Also new is 4.5 hrs motoring in choppy conditions. That is bound to stir crud up in the tank. Now you don't have idle. The bet now is that the two small holes in the throttle bore, one above and one below, are plugged.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to hanleyclifford For This Useful Post:
sastanley (05-23-2016), Shrek (05-23-2016)
  #61   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 05-23-2016, 12:19 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Sorry your wits are frazzled but please re-read post #55 in this thread, particularly the bad news. This was predictable.
  • Problem 1 - there's krap in your tank and it needs to be cleaned out thoroughly. My opinion is it's easier to replace the tank* than clean it.
  • Problem 2 - the krap has found its way through your fuel system and now every component needs to be cleaned thoroughly including the carburetor. Again.
  • Problem 3 - where did the krap come from? It didn't appear spontaneously. Unless you find the source you're doomed to a repeat sooner or later. In the current case it was sooner. A new tank won't do you any good until the source of contaminants is found, you'll just pollute the new tank too. The usual on board suspects are the fuel fill deck plate, the fuel fill hose, any steel components in the fuel system (prone to rust in the presence of water). Where have you been getting your fuel, a high volume gas station or the fuel dock? Fuel docks are notorious for krappified fuel, particularly water.

*I vaguely (perhaps incorrectly) recall the Columbia fuel tanks were steel with an exterior coating of whatever was substituting for red lead primer in the early 70's. If this is true, tank replacement becomes more important.

edit: About cleaning the tank, simply rinsing with fresh fuel won't do. Well, it probably will over time but how much time is an unknown. It has to be physically mucked out. Most guys use a swab on a stick and gain access by removing the fuel level sender. This is why I prefer tank replacement, guarantees a 100% clean result.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 05-23-2016 at 09:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
sastanley (05-23-2016), Shrek (05-23-2016)
  #62   IP: 66.183.144.82
Old 05-23-2016, 01:51 AM
Shrek Shrek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Richmond (Vancouver) BC, Canada
Posts: 68
Thanks: 89
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Disaster bites me again

Thanks both for these replies - guess I saw that coming. I will remove the idle jet and begin replacing the components Neil refers to. The tank itself is not the original one which is below the starboard settee berth, is steel and has the red lead type paint below white paint.exactly as Neil describes. The tank in use is I think an aluminum alloy and still very shiny inside but I could see some visible sized pieces down there and I only have a 25 micron water separating filter right now and this has to go. I want a 10 micron filter plus an 8 micron filter from the mech. pump to the carb.
Appreciate the support as always.😭 GF
Reply With Quote
  #63   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 05-23-2016, 10:15 AM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
Shrek, the little jets Hanley is talking about are in the "throttle body" or carb throat. You can see them on either side of the butterfly valve if you look closely. These need to be cleaned with carb cleaner at a minimum (wear eye protection, they exit at the weirdest places!), and if you can find a nice stiff twisty tie off a loaf of bread, remove the paper and use that to wire out the two holes.

Unfortunately as already noted above, if you did not remove 100% of the bad fuel and clean the tank, now you have 8 fresh gallons of bad fuel. The same amount of crap that was in the three gallons is now simply spread thru the eight...more work.

The following is my opinion...not science..Immediate burning of ethanol fuel (within a couple months) is not usually an issue. Water contamination from either the large dispensing tank from the supplier, or pre-existing water in your tank can be a problem. I think that over time ethanol fuel can absorb water molecules/vapor from the atmosphere too, which is why storing it in as full a tank as possible helps to minimize introduction of water vapor that then condenses and mixes with the fuel.

The large majority of marine gas powered vessels are burning ethanol gas...ethanol free is simply too hard to find (and comes with a price premium too.), so the inherent problems of burning ethanol gas are not insurmountable. The first is to eliminate obvious water intrusion, to keep the fuel as "dry" as possible. Fuel should not be cloudy. I've observed that cloudy ethanol gas usually indicates water 'in the mix".

I would remove 100% of the fuel and find some way to observe what is in it. I usually use a large clear jug (not usually safe for long term storage, but we're talking a day or two..those big cat litter containers work great and have large mouths for transfer)..and get a mixed up sample of your existing fuel in there to see what we are dealing with. The water will separate somewhat to the bottom and any junk should also settle to the bottom after sitting for a day or two. It may be possible to filter out most of the stuff and burn the fuel, but I agree with the others and also believe the next step is to eliminate contaminated fuel from your system (and get all the junk out of the carb...open the bowl drain and collect a few ounce sample for analysis before removing it for cleaning.)

I have had moderate success with Mr. Funnel brand of water separating funnels...They work amazingly well at mechanically separating water from fuel using some type of coated mesh. It lets fuel thru but traps most of the water..you'll see the 'thicker' water stuck in the filter.

Sorry for blabbering on...I have NEVER had good luck trying to dilute bad fuel with good fuel to create "serviceable" fuel..so, I preach about that a lot here on this forum.
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 05-23-2016 at 10:30 AM. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post:
Administrator (12-13-2016), Bratina (05-24-2016), hanleyclifford (05-23-2016)
  #64   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 05-23-2016, 02:42 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
...I have NEVER had good luck trying to dilute bad fuel with good fuel to create "serviceable" fuel..so, I preach about that a lot here on this forum.
From 3˝ years ago:
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...06&postcount=3
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 05-25-2021 at 10:11 PM. Reason: fixed link
Reply With Quote
  #65   IP: 47.33.99.96
Old 12-13-2016, 01:03 PM
HalcyonS's Avatar
HalcyonS HalcyonS is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: LA
Posts: 493
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
The idle system on the Zenith/Bendix carb is one of the most vulnerable to blockage on the carb. The tiny idle holes, one above and one below the throttle bore valve should be checked. Only the thinnest wire or a jeweler's drill bit can do this.
I find a set of superfine round files used for cleaning oxy welding tips quite handy in carb jet cleanout. They're finely graduated, in a flip out case like feeler gauges, more or less.
That said, in my recent carb overhaul, I forgot my files and used the fine wire from inside a twisty-tie (taking care to remove all paper debris)
__________________
"Halcyon" 36' custom sloop. 8 tons. Glass over strip plank mahoghany. Spruce mast and booms, launched 1969. Original A4.
Reply With Quote
  #66   IP: 47.33.99.96
Old 12-13-2016, 01:05 PM
HalcyonS's Avatar
HalcyonS HalcyonS is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: LA
Posts: 493
Thanks: 35
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
These need to be cleaned with carb cleaner at a minimum (wear eye protection, they exit at the weirdest places!),
ain't that the truth. I was glad I was wearing glasses. I'm sure acetone in the eyes ain't fun!
__________________
"Halcyon" 36' custom sloop. 8 tons. Glass over strip plank mahoghany. Spruce mast and booms, launched 1969. Original A4.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to HalcyonS For This Useful Post:
Shrek (12-13-2016)
  #67   IP: 66.183.144.82
Old 12-13-2016, 01:28 PM
Shrek Shrek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Richmond (Vancouver) BC, Canada
Posts: 68
Thanks: 89
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Clogged jets in carb

Thanks all for the replies to this issue. This is a fairly old post but always worth revisiting.

Thanks Halcyon S for this latest reply - worth looking into some tools to help make the jet cleaning job easier.

In fact we made our first vacation and it went off with hardly any issues at all this past summer. August brought us some amazing hot weather and hardly any wind. We mostly motored around the Canadian Gulf Islands between Vancouver and Vancouver Island and made it to Roche Harbour which is beautiful.

If anyone is interested just look me up as Gordon Foster, Vancouver on Facebook and send me a friend request mentioning our Moyer connection and I will gladly reply, and Neil Dutton and the others who gave me the courage I needed in order to work through my keel bolt and engine and coil issues will be able to see Dawn Treader in all her glory and nicely re-rigged in time for this amazing trip.

Until next time - thanks to all and have a wonderful holiday season !

Last edited by Shrek; 12-13-2016 at 01:29 PM. Reason: error in name
Reply With Quote
  #68   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 12-13-2016, 02:00 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Thanks for the mention Gordon, glad you found our conversations helpful. I don't Facebook so would you please update your forum profile album?? I'd love to see the pictures, sure others would too.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
what size prop to use whiskey wings Drive Train / Propellers 12 10-25-2015 12:54 PM
What size prop? smp Drive Train / Propellers 15 09-12-2012 08:35 AM
bolt size for prop shaft coupling tartansailboat Drive Train / Propellers 34 09-27-2011 11:08 PM
Proper size and pitch prop for 74 C&C33 MkI kwalters Drive Train / Propellers 6 10-16-2008 05:24 PM
Prop size Sailwood Drive Train / Propellers 8 05-06-2005 02:55 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved