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  #1   IP: 70.184.158.41
Old 04-06-2016, 11:55 AM
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1975 Catalina 27. Use of portable tanks in aft lazarette

m

My C27 is inboard powered with an A4. Stock gasoline tank is intact, but it has popped loose from its tabbing AND it's the original tank.

I'm considering scuttling the onboard tank for portable tanks. Stock tank is sound but inside "living" space. Optional tank location is sealed and self-draining from a flammable vapor perspective.

Onboard tank is below motor. Fuel pump overcomes Gravity. External tanks would be above motor. Prone to siphon flooding maybe. Is it safe or advisable to have the fuel tank upwards of a foot above the carburetor?

I don't want a gravity-fed fuel leak due to a poorly seated bowl valve.

Thoughts?

Last edited by philwsailz; 04-06-2016 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:32 PM
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Life's a trade off.

The existing tank may be inside the cabin space but it's ventilated per USCG standards by the bilge blower. The laz may be sealed from the cabin space but it's not ventilated to spec and it's higher than the carburetor as you observed. There are anti-siphon tank valves available to resolve the gravity feed concern (also a USCG requirement) and a manual shut off valve immediately ahead of the carburetor is in order but powered ventilation of the laz is imperative if it is to become a fuel compartment. I'd study the tank venting requirements carefully as well. I believe it's required to be vented overboard. We have a Standards forum category with all the pertinent information.

If the existing tank is sound and clean, I'd look at re-securing it. If not sound and clean, I'd consider replacing it with a Moeller poly tank. Please consider that there are thousands of Catalina 27's manufactured with the tank in the stock location without issues.
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Last edited by ndutton; 04-06-2016 at 11:22 PM. Reason: Jeez, learn to spell, will ya?
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:24 PM
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Phil, I did exactly what you are contemplating on my Cat 30 a few years ago after finding a small leak at the lowest point of the original aluminum tank. That tank had an anti-syphon valve and a shutoff valve which I just transferred to the new Moeler tank. Another modification that was needed during the change was to move the fuel fill farther aft, nearer the new tank. I do not use any kind of sealing gasket on that compartment, so I feel that it is fairly well vented. One bad design feature on the C-30's is that the fuel fill will become completely flooded during a washdown. The new location has proven to be a in much dryer location. I have had zero problems with this change and have gained some valuable storage space inside the cabin.
Tom
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:43 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Don't Quite Understand Current Tank Location

Quote:
Originally Posted by philwsailz View Post
m
Stock gasoline tank is intact, but it has popped loose from its tabbing AND it's the original tank.
Stock tank is sound but inside "living" space. Thoughts?
Phil
I also have Cat 27. The factory installed tank is located under the starboard quarter berth right next to A4 on my boat. I don't consider that area to be "living space" at all. More like inside the boat but out of the way. By any chance is the current tank on top of the starboard quarter berth? Where exactly is the current tank?

TRUE GRIT

If the current tank is under the starboard quarter berth an option would be to render it non explosive cut it up to remove it then put in two smaller cross linked plastic tanks in its place with a tank1, tank2 selector. Or just go with one smaller tank. Depending on how you use the boat a smaller tank might work for you? This way you wouldn't have to cut the quarter berth to get the existing tank out or new one(s) in.
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:03 PM
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We had a 74' C27 with factory outboard. It had 2x 6gallon saddle tanks in the act lazerette with a cutout in the middle for the motor. I would think it would be easy to put a set of tanks in and proper vents.

One thing I discovered is it was easier to leave the tanks in place even though I could remove them and fill them with a siphon.

On our C30 I think the tank level is above the carb at least when full, I have a easy access shut off valve just to be safe.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Phil
I also have Cat 27. The factory installed tank is located under the starboard quarter berth right next to A4 on my boat. I don't consider that area to be "living space" at all. More like inside the boat but out of the way. By any chance is the current tank on top of the starboard quarter berth? Where exactly is the current tank?

TRUE GRIT

If the current tank is under the starboard quarter berth an option would be to render it non explosive cut it up to remove it then put in two smaller cross linked plastic tanks in its place with a tank1, tank2 selector. Or just go with one smaller tank. Depending on how you use the boat a smaller tank might work for you? This way you wouldn't have to cut the quarter berth to get the existing tank out or new one(s) in.
Well you are correct. The space the tank occupies is technically in the engine compartment. Thing is, with current ABYC and USCG rules regarding bulkhead separation of engine spaces, so is the bilge... Yes, my tank is under the starboard quarter-berth... with really no solid isolation bulkheads between the tank and the cabin. As an ABYC/NMMA member I know the 40-yr old boat does not meet current standards... To me th tank IS in the "living space" of the boat.

If tank elevation were equal, fuel storage in new tank(s) in the self-draining open-to-atmosphere aft lazz would remove one source of explosive vapor from the interior.

I have not ruled out either solution yet, but central to the decision is how elegantly a guy could implement an automatic fuel shutoff to prevent siphoning, if even it is an issue. Or a manual shutoff...

So... Issues are defined Both options have their benefits. It becomes in my mind about a 50/50 trade off. Central to the decision I how to implement a fuel shutoff, simple or mildly interesting.

I do prefer new tanks in the vented and self-draining lazz IF I can with piece of mind know I can do it without draining the tanks straight into the bilge. The fuel storage location IS Infinitely safer.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:05 AM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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My recollection of Cat 27s is that they came in the inboard and outboard versions. The outboard version had the engine in the lazarette along with the fuel tank - all open aft, draining aft, and isolated from the cabin. The inboard engine was a conventional inboard installation.
I would be very leery of trying to use an outboard tank for an inboard engine.
I formerly had a Morgan 24 with an outboard, and after issues with the tank in the cockpit, moved two tanks to the space below. After initial fuel starvation issues, an electric fuel pump moved fuel to the engine nicely. Plug in the full tank and away you go.
Didn't realize at the time how I was flirting with death - any vapors from the tanks went into the bilge - where we were living. And outboard tanks vent to their surroundings, not overboard like inboard tanks.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:05 AM
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I added an extra tank as shown. The detachable venting parts are from McMaster. Not shown is the bungi hold down arrangement and the required shut off valve.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:50 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Phil
You may be on to something good moving the tank to the lazaret. Thinking how my Cat 27 is put together.*.....The tank fill is on the very end of the starboard cockpit combing and the vent is on the starboard side high and to the right (when viewed from outside the boat) on the stern. I don't see any reason why you couldn't use the existing fill and vent to a tank in the lazaret. This arrangement would keep any fumes from the tank out of the hull area. You could put a gas vapor detector in the lazaret for added peace of mind. This should work well because it is a closed space. Any vapors or spillage would stay in the lazaret not in the "living space".
* Hull #4446 built in 1979

TRUE GRIT

There is one disadvantage which may or may not be important to you: You're moving weight to the end of the boat.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:08 AM
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Party pooper

Are Al Schober and I the only ones who think this is dangerous? We are discussing portable tanks inside the boat. The USCG is very specific about and have good reasons for requirements for such installations. Just for the tank there are shock test, fire test, pressure test, labeling, grounding of all metallic parts and powered ventilation of the space. Heaven forbid there's ever an incident but if there was the insurance adjuster would likely red stamp the claim and you're on your own.

For the record, I remember Phil from back when I frequented (struggled with) SBO and his work is exceptional, one of the really good guys over there.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:03 AM
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Here we see the Bayliner arrangement. I'm sure there is no USCG or insurance problem or it wouldn't be built.

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Old 04-07-2016, 11:22 AM
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Really?

The example offered is a 16 foot outboard powered Bayliner Element bow rider in comparison to our inboard auxiliaries? Perhaps a wider angle view of the Bayliner installation will tell a more complete story:

Name:  Bayliner fuel tanks.jpg
Views: 1823
Size:  50.1 KB

Look, you can have any gasoline tank installation you want. Advocating it for others is another matter.
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Last edited by ndutton; 04-08-2016 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The example offered is a 16 foot outboard powered Bayliner Element bow rider in comparison to our inboard auxiliaries? Perhaps a wider angle view of the Bayliner installation will tell a more complete story:


Look, you can have any gasoline tank installation you want. Advocating it for others is another matter.
Sharing information does not constitute advocating.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:40 AM
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Also, note that the Bayliner installation does not feature individual overboard ventilation for the tanks - mine does. The Bayliner installation does provide side ventilation (as does mine) but I suggest that fumes could build up on that Bayliner installation just under the hatch.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Here we see the Bayliner arrangement. I'm sure there is no USCG or insurance problem or it wouldn't be built.
Enough said.
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1977 Catalina 30
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Are Al Schober and I the only ones who think this is dangerous? We are discussing portable tanks inside the boat. The USCG is very specific about and have good reasons for requirements for such installations. Just for the tank there are shock test, fire test, pressure test, labeling, grounding of all metallic parts and powered ventilation of the space. Heaven forbid there's ever an incident but if there was the insurance adjuster would likely red stamp the claim and you're on your own.

For the record, I remember Phil from back when I frequented (struggled with) SBO and his work is exceptional, one of the really good guys over there.
Yo!

First thanks for the compliment! I appreciate it when I get a little nugget like that. It means a lot.

It is worth clarifying, and it is hard to do without pictures... If you have ever been around the early Catalina 22 boats, (pre-1986) you will know that the jerry can storage location was technically not legal per USCG standards, as it truly was open to the boat's interior. if you used it, you were basically setting the gas can into the starboard quarter berth, where the oft-maligned galley was stowed. The post-86 Catalina 22 boats moved the gas can storage to a cockpit-floor-level lazarette that was totally isolated from the boat interior, as it was open to the open-air environment through a slot defined by the cockpit flore, (more or less and the lip of the hinged cover, which extended down all the way to the cockpit floor.

On a C27, this aft lazarette is similar in many aspects to the post-86 Catalina 22:
* It is the aft-most compartment on the boat, BEHIND a sealed bulkhead that provides a 100% separation from the cabin and all other interior spaces.
* It has TWO scuppers that exit through the transom at the lazz's floor level to allow any liquids, OR vapors to exit freely to the open-air environment
* The cockpit floor drains dump completely un-hindered into this compartment. as such it is really pretty unsuitable for storing anything that would be damaged by getting wet.
* there are actually two indentions tooled into the floor of this laz, in the shape of the old metal gas cans used at that time.

I have attached a rough pic showing a 2-D cutaway of the space in question. As I saved it I realized some aspects are not right, but the isolation and venting of this aft lazarett is drawn mostly accurately. Please note that there are TWO indentions molded in on the floor of this compartment. Indentions that fit the old metal gas can profile...

My point in trying to be so thorough is that this space is NOT a drop in cavity, eked out from the interior of the boat with no ventilation... it is NOT a place where flammable gasoline vapor will accumulate. IT exists BEHIND a floor-to-ceiling and wall-to-wall bulkhead totally ISOLATING it from all parts of the boats interior. In fact it is DESIGNED specifically for fuel storage, and is vented to the open air at floor level at the transom , as well as open vents as cockpit scuppers that allow fresh air in as well. It would be super-easy to add additional passive air movement with a few more clamshell vents, but I don't think it necessary...

Hopefully this helps folks understand more clearly. I will go hit the web and see if I can find any photos in support of the fact that this is a separate external chamber well removed from the boat's interior..

SO, Now that I hopefully have put the location aspect of the conversation, (hopefully)to bed:


I am really not trying to be a part of the BEAT THE LOCATION TO DEATH discussion that has evolved here, but rather I want to find out from the A4 community what happens at the carburetor when the tank is elevated with respect to the float valve.


Everybody has their tightey-whiteys all in a bunch over location when really we need to be talking about whether or not the elevation between fuel and carburetor is a cause for concern and what can be done if so. How really concerned are we over the ability of the mechanical pump and float valve to hold back a few inches of head pressure induced by a gas tank being installed higher than the motor.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:59 AM
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I like your thinking from what I can see, but IMO any tank in a covered compartment should have a dedicated overboard vent/discharge in the case of expansion and normal vapors. IIRC gasoline vapors rise...
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
I like your thinking from what I can see, but IMO any tank in a covered compartment should have a dedicated overboard vent/discharge in the case of expansion and normal vapors. IIRC gasoline vapors rise...
Ever see a redneck start a brush fire they primed with gas instead of kerosene or diesel?

Go try it, but wear thick socks and heavy shoes. Gas vapors hug the ground and are heavier than air.....
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:06 PM
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Roger that Phil. I had a vintage Catalina 22 (hull #51) and I am all too familiar with their ill conceived outboard tank storage provision. That's where I stored mine. Young, invincible and foolish.

Have you considered a Moeller poly tank in the laz instead of a portable outboard version? I'm thinking of the various USCG structural and fire related testing requirements that outboard tanks don't meet.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Roger that Phil. I had a vintage Catalina 22 (hull #51) and I am all too familiar with their ill conceived outboard tank storage provision. That's where I stored mine. Young, invincible and foolish.

Have you considered a Moeller poly tank in the laz instead of a portable outboard version? I'm thinking of the various USCG structural and fire related testing requirements that outboard tanks don't meet.
As shared earlier, I am an ABYC and NMMA member as a vendor to the marine industry. Be assured I will use proper tankage.

Part of the discussion hinges too around the fact that this will be the biggest boat on a little lake that has no marina. Gas delivery to the boat will be under my power walking down to the dock and putting it in the boat. Lowering a small tank into this laz and then securing it will be safer in many aspects, when compared to tilting a plastic yard maintenance 6-gallon gas can into a deck fill....

Setting a tank in, securing it and then plugging in the fuel line is a much more environmentally friendly means... It also further prevents the issue of fire due to spilled gas when starting the pour into the deck filll...
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philwsailz View Post
Everybody has their tightey-whiteys all in a bunch over location when really we need to be talking about whether or not the elevation between fuel and carburetor is a cause for concern and what can be done if so. How really concerned are we over the ability of the mechanical pump and float valve to hold back a few inches of head pressure induced by a gas tank being installed higher than the motor.
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=19
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=10
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by philwsailz View Post
Ever see a redneck start a brush fire they primed with gas instead of kerosene or diesel?

Go try it, but wear thick socks and heavy shoes. Gas vapors hug the ground and are heavier than air.....
I stand corrected...but I would still require a dedicated overboard vent on my boat to handle expansion. Your point is well taken and reinforces the notion that a tank must not be vented inside the compartment since vapors might find their way down the companionway.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philwsailz View Post
As shared earlier, I am an ABYC and NMMA member as a vendor to the marine industry. Be assured I will use proper tankage.

Part of the discussion hinges too around the fact that this will be the biggest boat on a little lake that has no marina. Gas delivery to the boat will be under my power walking down to the dock and putting it in the boat. Lowering a small tank into this laz and then securing it will be safer in many aspects, when compared to tilting a plastic yard maintenance 6-gallon gas can into a deck fill....

Setting a tank in, securing it and then plugging in the fuel line is a much more environmentally friendly means... It also further prevents the issue of fire due to spilled gas when starting the pour into the deck filll...
Exactly, and also addresses the issue of static charge between nozzle and deck fill.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:41 PM
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Perfect. This is EXACTLY why I posed my original question.

1. the valve in these carburetors can stick
2. a shutoff valve is required FOR SURE when away from the boat
3. The stock tank elevation should prevent this situation during normal use


I am an "open all seacocks Friday night and close them Sunday eve" sort of guy, so know that my intent would be to install a quarter-turn valve near the tank, or simply disconnect it when the boat was put away for the weekend. That is a no-brainer, and part of my "open it up" and "shut it down" checklists. Despite the discussion and debate, I JUST installed a new quarter-turn valve on the factory tank, so that I can turn fuel off when away from the boat IF I keep the stock tank in service.

What about when on the water? IF I go to tank in laz and decommission factory tank, part of me says put a solenoid valve on the fuel system that only allows fuel flow when the ignition is energized. Sails up, tiller pilot engaged, engine shutdown ALSO turns fuel off. I may be over-thinking it but surely its not rocket science, (or maybe quite literally it is... ).
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:47 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philwsailz View Post
Yo!

I am really not trying to be a part of the BEAT THE LOCATION TO DEATH discussion that has evolved here, but rather I want to find out from the A4 community what happens at the carburetor when the tank is elevated with respect to the float valve.
It can leak. You might get away with it today but the needle valve can age and tomorrow the carb will leak fuel. Having the tank higher than the carb will, as noted, make for a dandy siphon.
I would never depend on the needle valve to hold back fuel when the boat was unattended no matter where the tank was located.

TRUE GRIT
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