Another stalling problem

[T-bird]

I finally got down to my boat and put your advice to task by installing a new coil and then a new single wire Facet fuel pump and oil safety switch supplied, thankfully, with instructions from Moyer M. I have tried all combos of new and old pumps with new and old coils (except jumping past the o.s.s. on the Facet pump) with pretty similar results: runs for 5 or less min. then stops. From the see-thru filter the fuel pumps seem to pump well but weaken until it does not fill the filter above in or out ports (I broke the plastic window on my cheapo in-line fuel gauge) The last time I ran the engine, I was able to get a 13.94 volts from pos. terminal on coil to head bolt ground within a minute of start. Im confident that my wiring of the a4 is good except for the following. I have a prestolite 3alk 6204 35 amp alternator that a week ago was tested by a alternator shop and was good. My externally mounted regulator (vsh 6201 a) has a red wire from the regulator that was was mounted to the + on coil when I bought the engine. The alt. shop guy said it might go to the o.s.s. When I got engine it had no Oil safety switch and no instruments/ purple primary ig. wire. My guestion; is this an exciter and does it go to + on coil along with my purple primary ignition wire? Can this configuration cause my problems? Other points:starts great cold engine, E.I. elec.coolant pump, no house draws(lites etc.) good batteries on charger. Sorry this came out a lot longer than I expected and I thank you for your time and effort.

[Mo]

Running less than 5 minutes generally leads me to believe fuel starvation. Couple of things to check.
1. ensure all fuel shut off valves are open.
2. double check for leaks or weeping around filters
3. how much fuel is in your tank.

Re: 1 So my train of thought is that a valve is not open fully and the pump is having a hard time pulling fuel.

Re: 2 Maybe a line clamp or seal is sucking air into the system depleting your fuel pressure on delivery. Double check your work there.

Re: 3 "if" you have a pinhole in your pickup tube (the actual tube that the gas comes from the bottom of the tank) your pump might be able to fill the fuel filter and carb for start up. However, once the engine is running the pressure in the line drops off because you are using the fuel...and the engine stalls. You go for restart and the pump is able to re-pressure the line. So, in this case you add more gas to the tank and see if the problem goes away...if it does you know you have a pinhole in the pickup tube.

[JOHN COOKSON]

How easy is it to start the engine after a shutdown? Does the engine start again right away?
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge?
Her's one way to troubleshoot the fuel system:
Run off an auxiliary fuel tank connected to the fuel pump, bypassing the boat's part of the fuel system.
If the engine runs normally this way then put the other end of the boat's fuel system (the line that connects to the tank outlet) into the auxiliary tank. If the engine runs normally this way there is a tank problem.
Report back what you find. We'll take it from there.

ex TRUE GRIT

Even though this sounds like a fuel problem, just to be sure, check for spark after a shutdown.

[ndutton]

Exactly where is your electric fuel pump mounted? On the engine or on a nearby bulkhead?

[T-bird]

Thanks for your help. I have been running off a gas can for months and recently relocated the pump to a nearby bulkhead. I have a cheap fuel pressure gauge but the clear plastic covering came off and Im not sure if snapping it back on is any good.I do have a temporary see thru filter after the pump. I started the engine today on the first turn and it ran for 10 minutes to shutdown. It would crank but not start after regardless of choke. My observations: 2, 3 second crank, starts choke out full. Soon, -20 secs, 1/2 choke, 1700 rpm, gas low pulsing steady. 4 minutes in, no choke, 1500 rpm, fuel flow slightly stronger. 8 min. in, 1200 rpm, fuel flow steady. 10 min in shutdown. I looked at filter when I knew it was failing and had no flow even with key still on. Turned key off and tried to start 2 min, later. No go. Left key on and felt pump vibrating but no flow. Key off then felt coil was no warmer than bracket it sits in. Took carb. off and put on my bench to clean and swear at it. Any tips or "watch for" would be greatly appreciated.

[ndutton]

Here is what caught my eye:

. . . . installing . . . . . a new single wire Facet fuel pump

followed by

recently relocated the pump to a nearby bulkhead

Did you include a ground wire to the pump mounting bracket when you relocated it?

[T-bird]

I am using my old pump for lack of a soon to be ordered mounting bracket

[ndutton]

I am using my old pump for lack of a soon to be ordered mounting bracket

OK, same questions with the old pump. Bulkhead mounted? Ground wire to the pump mounting ears?

[edwardc]

And there's always the infamous "stuck ball" problem in the Facet pumps. Easy to check.

Simply unscrew the bayonet base of the pump,catching the half-cup of gas that comes out, and try pressing up on the check valve ball with a fingertip. Should move nice and smoothly. If it doesn't, press harder and it will come free with a "click".

This will temporarily fix the problem, but it will return. Only long-term fix is a new pump.

[T-bird]

The internally wired ground on my old pump is temporarily "grounded" to - on coil. Will put to engine bolt ground next time Im there. The old pump met a-4 fuel rate parameters I dont have my notes or numbers here but 3-4 lbs jumps to mind. After searching for hours for a carb. set up like mine I could not find anything similar. In short, the tube that usually terminates onto the carb filter
is routed up and into the carbs. manifold extension kit that Moyers sells as a scavenger tube hook-up. To this same extension the brass scavenger tube runs to the carbs underside between filter and chokes butterfly valve. I can have the young-uns send a pic later if need be. thanks again

[ndutton]

The internally wired ground on my old pump is temporarily "grounded" to - on coil.

That terminal is NOT a ground. I don't know if that is your problem but it is a problem. The pump ground needs to go to the engine block. If you have electronic ignition you may have damaged it with the pump connected as you describe. Something else to consider.

[TimBSmith]

Electronic fuel pump flow...

Here is my test of fuel flow even after confirming fuel pump pressure.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yuAGxoYvq13zqNgq8

Here is the fuel measured from not quite 24 second pump run.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/igPPJiK4JnYkw68q8

Here is my album from my first carb maintenance and service this fall. Some pictures have stars/notes to guide my process.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6hEzNuvpMshSYB4U6

I could not have confidence in my pump diagnostic or vacuum leak in fuel system without trustworthy pressure gauge. I could not have confidence with my fuel pump without testing its output.

About 6 months in forum and learned many lessons. One in particular, segment the system upstream and down. Speculate about nothing. Keep the process purely evidence-based and don't cut diagnostic corners. If a critical diagnostic is not feasible, learn how to make it feasible. Your carb will tell you alot about air/fuel flow and historical fuel quality, nothing about current tank, fuel system condition upstream.

Thankful. Happy New Year to all. Stay well.

[T-bird]

Thank you Tim Smith for the pics and vids. I will use your help-full idea and start visually documenting my actions. Much better than notes on the back of old envelopes. I know my process has been erratic and here is why: 1) I have no patience and 2) I decided to upgrade my 1/4" fuel line system to Moyer recommended 5/16line for my new Facet pump. Im ordering the mounting bracket Monday and hopefully the correct brass fuel fittings since they are impossible to find here. Once I have everything should I go small with gas can to pump to pressure gauge to carb or set up the whole system with filters, tank etc. and eliminate components if I have a problem?

[Hawkeye54]

Another stalling problem

T-bird, as in TimBSmith's post above, in the last paragraph he recommends 'segmenting the (fuel) system' - I would start with a feed from a portable tank to ensure the engine runs (and keeps running) , then add back in filters and fuel lines a little at a time --- other, more knowledgeable folks will provide more detail, I am sure.



Rick

[TimBSmith]

Patience...

If you are a naturally patient person please ignore this post.

I TOTALLY understand your patience comment. I have a high rpm motor in my head and I sometimes imagine I should know things that there is no way I could actually know. (Ask my wife sometime.)

Something I learned about patience working on my engine. I cannot be patient if I am not doing whatever I can to make myself comfortable when doing slow patient work in my engine space and make it a rewarding(for me) process.

For me this means: 1) Knee pads. My Husky knee pads help me focused on my engine work and not my knee pains when I am jammed or balancing for long periods of time. 2) Padding on the engine when doing cold engine work. I remove ignition cables and lay a couple of foam pads on top of my engine, it seems like in the Pearson 30 I am forever spooning the entire engine head to get beside and behind the engine. (Engine work actually reminds me a lot of bouldering/rock climbing)

3) Preparation. (I don't want to short change my learning experience) I probably spend 4x the amount of time researching, planning, sketching, and studying systemic cause/effect, chain of function, etc before I dive in. (Even then I make some whammo mistakes!) 4) Documentation. This helps me manage the risk of missteps and it gives me immediate/future feedback and reward for all the small steps required by much of this new-to-me engine work.

Regarding fuel system. The best advice I got and give is to segment the system upstream first.

Test and evaluate your tank (what degree of cleaning needed?), here is the rig I used (inspired by others here). To inspect gasoline condition and sample tank for sludge.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wbid8CM15DotBK8d6 long pvc pipe reaches bottom of tank.

If I had found even a little sludge I would have added agitation to detergent treatment. Tested then considered service in place or removal to clean. I have Monel tank. Any detergent of solvent or agitation approach needs to be matched with tank material.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4LDiwrYDzqnMSuX37

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7BfhJkReqaeixDNy8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WTRCb5o876at97vV6

I was very fortunate in that all upstream evidence indicated acceptable tank, tank fill, tank vent, and tank cradle conditions. I have a little weasel in my head that sometimes wants to short-cut diagnostics. To counter the weasel I ask myself repeatedly if I have collected enough information and especially looked for confounding data that I would rather not seek.


Then it was time to trace fuel hoses check valves and clamps. Check fuel filter. My PO had replaced all hoses in past 7 years. So no ethanol decay worries.

Then is was time to address pump, pressure, carb.

The "mind weasel" tested me at every turn. One thing about this forum. It is a "mind weasel" slayer. Choosing to ignore experienced rigorous(mostly) thought-out posts makes one face the timeless question "Am I solving the problem or eliminating the symptom?"

Best with your journey and destination. Stay well.