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  #26   IP: 69.237.148.129
Old 02-05-2011, 03:40 PM
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If this was a case of wear, why are there no signs of rotational rubbing?. Jim's pictures are of the front and rear main caps and their bearings which means that the crankshaft (which is a very stout piece) would have to bend considerably to cause this type of wear pattern. It is always good practice to measure everything in the rotating assembly during a rebuild, but don't ignore the fact that this is a newly acquired (at least 30 year old) A4 that may have had little or no maintainance for quite some time making it a prime candidate for acid deterioration.
Tom
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Old 02-05-2011, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P30inbuffalo View Post

This engine would not go to high rpms in forward, regardless of the throttle setting.
I'm thinkin' this is big clue. Some prop or load issue?

Those "worm holes" are strange things. They do look like some stainless steel crevice corrosion I've seen, but I'm leanin toward the low-speed issue.

This is all academic, since this engine will be well maintained from now on and the shaft will properly aligned when it goes back in anyway. Right?

Got a color picked out?

Ruz

update:
Wow! I just found an even better site.
http://www.agkits.com/bearing-failure-analysis.aspx
Some more extensive descriptions here.
Just a thought here; My brother-in-law has done much research on metal fatigue in acid environments. He says it will contribute to crack growth during stress cycles. Probably something from all quadrants beating up this poor bearing.

R.
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  #28   IP: 69.237.148.129
Old 02-05-2011, 09:09 PM
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Lat64,
Agreed, once p30 completes his rebuild and the correct prop is chosen and with proper engine care, I'm confident that the problem will go away. Now, if we can just can coax him into going to a FWC system, he will probably wind up with an A4 that will outlive most of us.
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:15 PM
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P30 Jim,

Apologies if I missed this but exactly what size prop were you running?
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  #30   IP: 67.242.166.173
Old 02-06-2011, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
P30 Jim,

Apologies if I missed this but exactly what size prop were you running?
Dont know the prop size but I will check this week. Color, I'm thinkin original bronze but now I'm thinking about it.
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  #31   IP: 69.237.159.71
Old 02-06-2011, 06:28 PM
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"On second thought"

After looking at bearing failure causes on several additional websites and thumbing through even more repair manuals, I am tending to agree with Hanley and Russ that this is more likely a case of bearing failure caused by extreme engine lugging. Recently another A4 owner who posted bearing pictures with similar pitting marks, was also experiencing an inability to reach decent cruising rpm's, which would also tend to support this theory. Although Acid corrosion does look similar, the higher wear pattern on the portions of the bearing shells toward the center of the engine might very well indicate a "flexing" of the crankshaft. Ironically, the better the tune of the motor, the more this situation would be prone to happen.
Tom
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  #32   IP: 96.243.56.98
Old 02-07-2011, 01:16 PM
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Lugging wormtrails

Thanks to all of you for your analysis. I in my limited experience am thinking that this was caused ultimately by the engine lugging- the lugging caused minute cracks in the bearing which then were eroded by the presumed excessive acidity, along those crack/fatigue lines.

I was concerned there might be another mechanical condition in the engine that needed to be addressed, not wanting to go to all the trouble of rebuilding and then miss something.

Another question- where would I find all the measurement specs for the engine to compare against what we measure? I wasnt seeing them in the Moyer manual.

Jim
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"My experience with engines is that if you depend on them they fail you, but if it just doesn't matter, they serve you."
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:25 PM
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There is another manual for the atomic 4 which may have the specs you
are looking for by Robert Staton "Service and repair manual for the atomic 4"
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:30 PM
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Also found this link by Hess which does give specification details

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/atomic4/atomic4specs.htm
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  #35   IP: 148.170.241.1
Old 02-07-2011, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post
update:
Wow! I just found an even better site.
http://www.agkits.com/bearing-failure-analysis.aspx
The damage on mine looks exactly like this pic:

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Old 02-08-2011, 09:18 AM
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Status of your rebuild?

Hey Bill, did you have specific engine issues like lugging or low power? I'm curious as your bearing breakdown is very similar. How's your rebuild going? Have you determined the wear on your crankshaft and bores and whether you will be upsizing rings/bearings?
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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"My experience with engines is that if you depend on them they fail you, but if it just doesn't matter, they serve you."
-Frank Wightman

“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living."
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Last edited by P30inbuffalo; 02-08-2011 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:24 AM
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I bought my boat in August - during the survey, the surveyor noted that the engine never got above about 1700 rpm cruising at WOT. The seller said he had had a professional mechanic check the timing and everything, and that it had always run that way since he had it (he had it about 8 years).

I said it probably was the propeller and the surveyor agreed that I should check that out.

I'm planning on biting the bullet and buying the Indigo prop.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:25 AM
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Oil filter

I'm thinking it makes complete sense to add an oil filter system like the kit for sale through MMI. Does anyone have experience doing this? A former auto mechanic friend of mine was in disbelief when I told him the engine had no oil filter.
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Lake Erie - Buffalo

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
-H. L. Mencken

"My experience with engines is that if you depend on them they fail you, but if it just doesn't matter, they serve you."
-Frank Wightman

“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living."
-Gen. Omar Bradley
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:26 AM
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Oh, and no, I have not yet put a mic on the bearings or cylinders. Visually, they appear pretty much perfect. They also feel pretty much perfect to the touch - no discernable ridges, wear or scoring anywhere, so I'm optimistic.

I'm working on contacting local engine shops who will be able to properly get a measurement of the cylinder bores and crank journals. Once I get those numbers, then I'll have a better idea of how to proceed. But for now, I'm thinking I'm probably going to be able to get away with just giving they cylinders a light honing and installing the standard piston rings and crank bearings.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:39 AM
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Re-wiring

Like many others here it seems pulling the engine inevitably leads to a host of related projects which make a lot of sense to do at the same time, to the extent that funds and energy permit.
My engine compartment is a complete mess of in-line fuses and electrical taped splices and crisscrossed hanging wires. I have been reading up on some of the basics like wire and connectors. I am in a freshwater environment so corrosion isnt as big an issue as it is for a lot of you. However I think it still makes sense to use tinned wire and double crimp connectors when I redo the wiring. If nothing else it would be nice to have the satisfaction of knowing something was done "properly". (The problem is trying to learn enough starting from near zero, with limited time available, to be able to hit the mark close to "properly". And when its smarter to NOT attempt something! I am inclined to attempt more than I can handle)

Has anyone found a source for small quantities of tinned wire (25ft?) and quality connectors? A lot of the sites I have checked out have 100 ft as a minimum.
Any thoughts on some do's and dont's?

Thanks
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Lake Erie - Buffalo

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
-H. L. Mencken

"My experience with engines is that if you depend on them they fail you, but if it just doesn't matter, they serve you."
-Frank Wightman

“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living."
-Gen. Omar Bradley

Last edited by P30inbuffalo; 02-08-2011 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P30inbuffalo View Post

Has anyone found a source for small quantities of tinned wire (25ft?) and quality connectors? A lot of the sites I have checked out have 100 ft as a minimum.
Any thoughts on some do's and dont's?

Thanks
Jim,

genuniedealz.com - no minimums as far as I know and free shipping.

I used them when I re-did my mast wiring and I am building a shopping list for the rest of the boat now too.

They have an e-bay store too, but their prices are the same no matter where you shop.

Since Moyer sponsors this forum, I should mention they also have ABYC compliant re-wiring kits available too.
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  #42   IP: 148.170.241.1
Old 02-08-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P30inbuffalo View Post
My engine compartment is a complete mess of in-line fuses and electrical taped splices and crisscrossed hanging wires.
I don't know what you mean - here is my engine compartment - a veritable paragon of organization...

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Old 02-08-2011, 11:01 AM
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In my recent engine rewire I prefabricated a harness using the attached drawing. Note that the drawing has features specific to my installation so there may be wiring shown that's not necessary for others. I made measurements as to lengths from connection to connection and scribbled them on the drawing as a layout tool. I drove nails into my workbench top to use as measurement posts and off I went. The junctions shown were soldered and insulated with shrink tube. I finished it up by encasing the whole thing in split loom.

Blasphemy Alert!!

I did not use tinned wire. The proper colors are tough enough to find in reasonable lengths untinned and I figured the original untinned harness worked fine for over thirty years, why wouldn't I expect another thirty years out of the new harness?
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File Type: pdf E-5 Engine harness.pdf (17.0 KB, 974 views)
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:10 PM
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I'm so glad you blasphemed before I had to run that gauntlet. I too go the non-tinned route and pay particular attention to proper crimping and heat shrinking.

This is certainly good practice for increasing connection viability and assuages my conscience...
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:12 PM
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:14 PM
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To tin or not to tin, that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
I'm so glad you blasphemed before I had to run that gauntlet. I too go the non-tinned route and pay particular attention to proper crimping and heat shrinking.

This is certainly good practice for increasing connection viability and assuages my conscience...
Maybe tinned wire is overkill here on Lake Erie?
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
-H. L. Mencken

"My experience with engines is that if you depend on them they fail you, but if it just doesn't matter, they serve you."
-Frank Wightman

“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living."
-Gen. Omar Bradley

Last edited by P30inbuffalo; 02-08-2011 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
In my recent engine rewire I prefabricated a harness using the attached drawing. Note that the drawing has features specific to my installation so there may be wiring shown that's not necessary for others. I made measurements as to lengths from connection to connection and scribbled them on the drawing as a layout tool. I drove nails into my workbench top to use as measurement posts and off I went. The junctions shown were soldered and insulated with shrink tube. I finished it up by encasing the whole thing in split loom.
Do you have any pics of the completed installation? I would love to see this.
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Lake Erie - Buffalo

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
-H. L. Mencken

"My experience with engines is that if you depend on them they fail you, but if it just doesn't matter, they serve you."
-Frank Wightman

“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living."
-Gen. Omar Bradley
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P30inbuffalo View Post
Maybe tinned wire is overkill?
_IF_ you properly heat-shrink-seal every end _AND_ you get no nicks in the insulation, then untinned is probably ok. But who can guarantee that? I prefer to spend a little more on tinned and take a "belt & suspenders" approach.

But there's another very good reason to use _marine grade_ tinned wire. Marine grade wire uses much finer strands than automotive wire. It also uses a different insulation that is slightly thicker but much softer. The end result of both of these is that marine grade wire is much more flexible. This becomes important when routing large bundles of wire in a tight space, or when routing heavy battery and starter cables.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:50 PM
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Tappet replacement?

I have noticed some wear on top and bottom of a couple tappets- in the first photo the top of the closer tappet is scored in a circular pattern. In the second the bottom of one tappet has some weird wear almost like an inclusion in the metal.
Should I:
A. Dont be concerned
B. Machine the surfaces that are questionable
C. replace any questionable tappets
D. Replace all the tappets

I don't want to overthink all of this but I want to do it right.
Attached Images
  
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Pearson 30
Lake Erie - Buffalo

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
-H. L. Mencken

"My experience with engines is that if you depend on them they fail you, but if it just doesn't matter, they serve you."
-Frank Wightman

“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living."
-Gen. Omar Bradley
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:14 PM
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Those are not too bad yet. probably won't make a hoot of difference in running. It looks like the vlave lash may have been a little loose. The circular pattern is from the tappet rotating in it's bore. This is normal.
A machine shop with the right attachment to their valve grinding machine can recondition these for you. Don't try it yourself; It has to be absolutivly spot-on done right
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:58 PM
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:45 PM
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Niel ,

THANK YOU !!! Now I can come out of the closet - I am a TINLESS Afourian !

I used the same logic - the original wire was not tinned and was relatively intact after 45 years , just rat-nested and FUBARed beyond hope , so I tore it out. I'm 59 , so I think my new wire will outlast me.

Still coming down from Super Bowl ,

Laker
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