Heater safety with an atomic 4 engine?

[joe_db]

The thing I like about the Espars is they suck in combustion air from outside and vent the exhaust outside. This adds a layer of safety.
The wood/coal stove on our old Dickerson sucked air from inside the boat and up the flu, it seems to help dry things out. When I am cooking in the winter I need to crack the hatch or I get water condensing on various things, which somewhat defeats the purpose of trying to use a cooking stove to heat the boat.
One invention I have for long winter trips is 4 socks. 2 are on my feet and 2 are on the engine. You swap socks about every half hour. Be warned, if you have smelly socks the crew will mutiny

[donoharm]

No way would I operate a flame type heating system underway without it being actively monitored. That is, cabin crew assigned to monitor it for safety. At anchor, tip safety and CO monitoring would seem sufficient.

In such frigid climes I think I would be attracted to a boat with an inside steering station (see Capital Yachts line of Gulf sailboats, 27, 29 and 32) and consider an automotive type heater core with an electric forced air fan off of a FWC engine cooling system. Mmmm, warm and toasty.

The concern is have with this is if you’re monitoring for safety and you start to smell gas, isn’t it already too late?

The thing I like about the Espars is they suck in combustion air from outside and vent the exhaust outside. This adds a layer of safety.
The wood/coal stove on our old Dickerson sucked air from inside the boat and up the flu, it seems to help dry things out. When I am cooking in the winter I need to crack the hatch or I get water condensing on various things, which somewhat defeats the purpose of trying to use a cooking stove to heat the boat.
One invention I have for long winter trips is 4 socks. 2 are on my feet and 2 are on the engine. You swap socks about every half hour. Be warned, if you have smelly socks the crew will mutiny

Exactly, the espar is great, but it’s a damp heat whereas the solid fuel or diesel will make a dry heat.

[ndutton]

I'd say if you are still able to smell gas you're able to shut off the heater or any other source of ignition. How is this any different than a stove onboard? And as for gas leaks, I think this demonstrates how important keeping our fuel systems in top condition really is.

[joe_db]

The concern is have with this is if you’re monitoring for safety and you start to smell gas, isn’t it already too late?




Exactly, the espar is great, but it’s a damp heat whereas the solid fuel or diesel will make a dry heat.

Espars are not damp. All combustion products go overboard.
* I used to work on them

[donoharm]

Espars are not damp. All combustion products go overboard.
* I used to work on them

I haven’t used either so I’ll take your word for it. But wouldn’t a heat source that takes air from inside the cabin dry out that air? If the espar will take air from inside and push it back inside, I worry that cold surfaces like fiberglass bulkheads will cause condensation and mold.

[Mo]

The thing I like about the Espars is they suck in combustion air from outside and vent the exhaust outside. This adds a layer of safety.
The wood/coal stove on our old Dickerson sucked air from inside the boat and up the flu, it seems to help dry things out. When I am cooking in the winter I need to crack the hatch or I get water condensing on various things, which somewhat defeats the purpose of trying to use a cooking stove to heat the boat.
One invention I have for long winter trips is 4 socks. 2 are on my feet and 2 are on the engine. You swap socks about every half hour. Be warned, if you have smelly socks the crew will mutiny

I think an Espar type is the way to go if you really need a heater. Apparently they too have a hard time keeping up in cold weather. A wood stove would work fine but IMHO I think they should be custom made and then you have insurance issues. That one I have in the garage is constructed very light. As for the warm socks there is also another trick sailing offshore in cool weather. It's the racers trick and the guys that do the Marblehead to Halifax, Rhode Island to Bermuda etc do it. They boil eggs and put them in their pocket then warm their hands with them. Once cool they eat the egg. Never heard of it until my buddy George, who has done both races multiple times told, me about it. My thought was, "so how many eggs are you bringing".

[Mo]

I haven’t used either so I’ll take your word for it. But wouldn’t a heat source that takes air from inside the cabin dry out that air? If the espar will take air from inside and push it back inside, I worry that cold surfaces like fiberglass bulkheads will cause condensation and mold.

In moderately cool weather I don't think you will have a condensation issue at all. This morning it was 23F here and I was down on the boat. Fired up the little buddy heater and did the few things I wanted to get done. Again, left the hatch cover open about 4 inches. The boat warmed up, wind was light, so it wasn't being sucked right out. Anytime you keep a boat ventilated it will stay dry. Most every heater we talked about will build enough heat in the temp I just mentioned to keep the boat warm...we'd be opening the hatch anyway because the heat will drive us out of there LOL. On cool days like today though, I find my feet do feel the cool because I generally feel the heat from the knees up as we are venting the unit...the floor area is cooler. But condensation really wouldn't be much of an issue unless everything is closed up and tight.

Some people here know I used to work winters in the Arctic. One winter about 12 years ago I lived in an prefab insulated tent for 3 months with a gravity fed oil stove in it...Temp was -40 C almost everyday in the dark winter. I'd have one upper corner of a window unzipped about a foot to maintain some sort of equilibrium on temp. Again, cooler at the floor but awesome for sleeping. No condensation though.

[joe_db]

An Espar is like an electric heater, it creates hot air. It neither adds nor subtracts air from inside the boat. It does not add moisture nor remove it. It can "keep up" just fine if large enough for the boat and the climate. Some of the ones I installed would drive you out of the boat if turned up full blast. Nothing stopping you from cracking a hatch if you want to.
My biggest condensation issue is water dripping off the forward hatch, which unfortunately lands right on my face
The problem is the metal and plexiglass frame might be 25 degrees and the inside of the cabin might be 70 degrees and you are sleeping right under it exhaling warm moist air. The easy solution is to get a yoga mat and some chain to weight it down and put the rubber mat over the hatch. The foam rubber insulates the hatch and ends the dripping issue. Do NOT tie the mat down, you need to be able to open the hatch and climb out. See dive boat fire

[Elizabeth_B29]

Heater

Hey,
Why not a heater that uses the jacket water circulated, like the ones you used to see on the old school buses and the type that some of the old heavy equipment have.

There are many versions available from Defender and Hamilton and also other sources online that use DC fans to distribute the heat through ducts.
Has the added benefit of charging your batteries when you get your toes and fingers warm.
Then bundle up and tough it out the rest of the day :-)

I do have a two burner alcohol stove on board but I really don’t even like to use that. I always defer to a Forespar sea swing type propane unit that’s attached to a bracket outside and use my magma gas grill this mounted off the rail. And yes I store the propane bottles in a pvc rack that’s outside the hull.... if the bottles were stored inside the rail or cockpit, the water in the cockpit scuppers would effectively be like a J trap on the bathroom sink, If the stored bottles were to leak, trapping gas in the cockpit. Possibly on a still day without much wind this would not be good.

We are vigilant about keeping water from our cockpit from a wave pooped stern from going down below.
I feel like we should be just as vigilant in preventing accumulated propane from spilling over into the cabin also.

I do have a two burner alcohol stove, but really I’m quite paranoid even though I sniff the bilge like a hound dog.
I pretty much defer to any source of ignition being reserved for the engine only, at the spark plugs.
I’m just too paranoid about it all and for a good reason.

Vigilance is prudent when gasoline combustion engines are down in your cabin.
If you play it safe then you don’t have all those weird thoughts in the back of your mind when you retire for the evening in a snug anchorage in a snug Vee.

Cheers!!

Elizabeth

[joe_db]

Radiator heaters surely can work well with FWC engines, the coolant from a RWC engine is liable to be not that hot and many heater cores are not designed to deal with salt water.

[sastanley]

I do have a two burner alcohol stove on board but I really don’t even like to use that.

Elizabeth

Hi - I snipped a lot of your excellent message. I shifted from a Princess pressurized alcohol stove to an unpressurized Origo. I really like it and believe it is quite a bit safer than the old Princess. I also use my Magma up on deck whenever I can. I even keep my 1lb. propane cans for that in a sealed container. What type of alcohol stove do you have?

edit - I have also heard some ideas about using an alcohol stove to heat the cabin..such as placing terra cotta flower pots and similar over top, and/or creating some small temporary chimneys to get the fumes out. When I was a kid, we had a Coleman camp heater in the galley and I do remember we cracked the hatch a little bit, but I can't remember how many gallons we burned in that portable heater...a lot...and I lived to tell about it.

[edwardc]

Hi - I snipped a lot of your excellent message. I shifted from a Princess pressurized alcohol stove to an unpressurized Origo. I really like it and believe it is quite a bit safer than the old Princess. I also use my Magma up on deck whenever I can. I even keep my 1lb. propane cans for that in a sealed container. What type of alcohol stove do you have?

edit - I have also heard some ideas about using an alcohol stove to heat the cabin..such as placing terra cotta flower pots and similar over top, and/or creating some small temporary chimneys to get the fumes out. When I was a kid, we had a Coleman camp heater in the galley and I do remember we cracked the hatch a little bit, but I can't remember how many gallons we burned in that portable heater...a lot...and I lived to tell about it.

I used to be a fan of the flowerpot-on-the-stove heater. Not any more.

Although, in principle, an alcohol stove (I have an Origo too) burns cleanly, this is only true when the flame is adjusted correctly, which is rarely the case. Unless its pure pale blue, any yellow means incomplete combustion and byproducts. One of these is CO (carbon monoxide). I learned this by setting off the CO alarm when we closed up during a rainstorm while boiling a pot of water. Some googling later, I learned that almost any disruption of the flame, such as the bottom of a pot, can result in incomplete combustion and the production of CO.

So, no more flowerpots, and we now cook with the hatches open.

---
Edit:

Here's a reference to a TON of info on cooking in tents and CO. Its relevant to boats as well.

http://zenstoves.net/COHazard.htm

[W2ET]

I've debated getting one of those little butane stoves you see hotels using to make omelets for the breakfast crowd.

Comments?

I've learned a lot from this thread, starting with nothing is as simple as it seems.

Bill

[edwardc]

George Dinwiddie, an A4/Alberg 30 owner and maintainer of the Alberg 30 website, has been using one of those for years on his Alberg 30 "Calypso" and really likes it.

[joe_db]

I've debated getting one of those little butane stoves you see hotels using to make omelets for the breakfast crowd.

Comments?

I've learned a lot from this thread, starting with nothing is as simple as it seems.

Bill

To cook on or heat boats?
For cooking, those and Coleman propane camp stoves are a pennies on the dollar substitutes for "real" marine stoves. They are safe enough *if the gas is stored outside when not in use*!
As stated earlier, I am not in favor of open flame non-vented cabin heating ideas. Besides for CO or CO2 poisoning, due keep in mind how very fast fiberglass boats burn. We had a live-aboard boat go up so fast at our marina the owner barely made it out it went from no problem to fully in flames so fast