Heater safety with an atomic 4 engine?

[donoharm]

Hello everyone,

I would like to install a solid fuel heater on my atomic 4 powered C&C 30. If I even mention the thought on the other forums, I get warned that it’s a suicidal gesture and that it’s only a matter of time before my boat explodes. How many of you have a heater on your boat and are there any additional safety precautions I can employ to reduce the likelihood of an explosion? I’ve been thinking of installing a gas fume detector and solar powered vent but I’d appreciate any other suggestions.

[joe_db]

I do not have a heater currently, my last boat had a wood stove. The last boat was diesel powered.
Look at it this way, would you close yourself in a room with an engine and a tank of gas and then build a fire in the fireplace? Probably not, but if you did you would be VERY careful.
OTOH you already cook over an open flame in that same room, so what's the big deal?
My reservation is that while I do cook on a gas stove, I surely wouldn't turn it on if I smelled gasoline and I turn it off before I go to sleep. If I fire up a cabin heater, I may well be asleep while it runs and then you are essentially betting your life your needle valve is perfect. If I did hook up a wood stove, I would make sure and have both a CO detector and gasoline fume detector. Also I would not rely on the needle valve. When I shut down at the end of the day I turn the fuel pump off and let the engine run the gas out of the carb and hose. That way there is no gasoline waiting to leak

[jbsoukup]

i use a catalytic "buddy heater" designed for enclosed spaces, runs on one lb. propane cylinders and has low o2 shutoff and tip over safety. so far no problems (10yrs)
just use common sense and keep your fuel system/engine and ventilation system in good shape.

[Mo]

Maybe this will help.

I have a C&C 30. For a number of years I've had a solid fuel heater sitting in my garage. I was recently offered a propane dickinson heater for the boat as well and backed off that although it was cheap. Here is why.

First and foremost I'd lose too much room in the cabin. The only place it can go is the on the stb forward bulkhead and then it takes up room from the settee on that side. There's no room on the table side behind the mast as a person couldn't sit there. You can put it on the stb side but you just lost a lot of useful cabin space.

Secondly. Re: Solid Fuel. The biggest draw back is that it does have adverse effects on deck and in the cockpit. The boat on a mooring...the wind blows back. It's been know to darken the deck, and dodger material and windows etc and you know you are sitting behind a chimney. Then there is cleaning and removing the tray...right above the settee seat...mess.

Propane Heater - Dickinson. Clean on deck, no adverse effects on dodger if mounted stb side forward bulkhead. Major Heat right now!

Both Propane and solid fuel heater. They kick off so much heat and there are two safety issues. These I know of from other unfortunates that have made these mistakes. 1. generally on in inclement weather. I don't know how many people burned their expensive wet weather gear walking by on the way to the head. 2. Falling into it and burns...typically hands...most of the time it's not on and voila, you know when it is!

I'm in Nova Scotia. Boat comes out in late October and back in late April or May. What I use is the "Lil Buddy Heater" and realistically its used a few of times a year, more in the spring than fall. Easily stows in the locker across from the head. I actually used it 2 weeks ago to heat the boat when installing a new radio and AIS...heated the boat fine and I had to start taking off layers. Temp was around 0 C.

I also have the Coleman heater that you screw the propane bottle onto. One bottle lasted about 8 hrs on that and it heated the boat for years before I picked up the little buddy. With both heaters I open the oven door and put the heater on it. Put the doors in the boat and leave sliding hatch open 3 inches. That provides ample air flow along with the factory vents on that particular boat. No issues and the boat will be warm. The buddy heater is best though, and it's out of the way when not in use.

As for explosions. Well no ignition sources active when working on fuel, if you smell fuel or even suspect a fuel issue. If I smelled gas in the boat I wouldn't even flick the power switch.

Now, there is another reasonable option. There are boat heaters on amazon, diesel run, much like espars. They run in the $300 range and "If" I was spending a lot of time on the boat in the winter I'd consider it. I considered it last year and would put one of those in ahead of any bulkhead mounted heater....BUT....for the amount of time I use a heater I'm just setting myself up for something else to break and or maintain.

I hope that helps with your thought process on the heaters.

EDIT:
Lil Buddy you get about 4, maybe 5 hours out of little propane bottle with setting on low. Low is all you need to heat the boat.
The Coleman heater: about 8 hours on a little propane bottle.

Both warm the boat although the Lil Buddy kicks off real heat real fast.

Never ever used both the same time. The Coleman heater sits in the cabinet above the table and hasn't come out in a number of years.

2nd Edit. Forgot to mention my very first boat heater which was among the best. The good óle propane lantern. Sitting on the table or hanging off the mast via a bent coat hanger hook...they work. Use one and occasionally still do. That lantern alone will keep the boat comfortable coming in out of the rain in spring summer and fall and dry your stuff as well. It's generally on of the first things guys buy around here. Buy the one with the one wick (thingy) and not the double. One is perfect, the other one is too hot.

[ndutton]

Ask those experts on the other forums what cooking fuel they use. Propane? Vapors heavier than air (like gasoline), a similar explosive force and unlike gasoline, stored under pressure.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Al Schober]

In my years, I've tried a few things for cabin heat.
First was the flower pot over an alcohol burner. It put out some heat but not really satisfactory. Worst was the water vapor into the cabin which found plenty of places to condense. Decided that any future heater needed to be vented outside.

Tried a Force 10 kero heater. 1" stainless flue pipe with a small deck fitting. Worked well when new, but heat seemed to be limited to a cone around the heater. I had no issue leaving running on a low heat all night. Problem was maintenance on the Patria burner. Tried working on it onboard and almost burned down the boat. Brought it home to work on and almost burned down the house! A propane unit might have been better, but still with the cone of heat near the unit. Personally, never went further.

Best units I've had experience with (other peoples boats) are the Espar hot air units. Come back to the boat with your teeth chattering, flip the switch, and in 10 minutes you're comfy. Do a reasonable job with the ducts and it will warm the entire boat.

[donoharm]

I have a C&C 30. For a number of years I've had a solid fuel heater sitting in my garage. I was recently offered a propane dickinson heater for the boat as well and backed off that although it was cheap. Here is why.

First and foremost I'd lose too much room in the cabin. The only place it can go is the on the stb forward bulkhead and then it takes up room from the settee on that side. There's no room on the table side behind the mast as a person couldn't sit there. You can put it on the stb side but you just lost a lot of useful cabin space.

Secondly. Re: Solid Fuel. The biggest draw back is that it does have adverse effects on deck and in the cockpit. The boat on a mooring...the wind blows back. It's been know to darken the deck, and dodger material and windows etc and you know you are sitting behind a chimney. Then there is cleaning and removing the tray...right above the settee seat...mess.

Propane Heater - Dickinson. Clean on deck, no adverse effects on dodger if mounted stb side forward bulkhead. Major Heat right now!

Both Propane and solid fuel heater. They kick off so much heat and there are two safety issues. These I know of from other unfortunates that have made these mistakes. 1. generally on in inclement weather. I don't know how many people burned their expensive wet weather gear walking by on the way to the head. 2. Falling into it and burns...typically hands...most of the time it's not on and voila, you know when it is!

I'm in Nova Scotia. Boat comes out in late October and back in late April or May. What I use is the "Lil Buddy Heater" and realistically its used a few of times a year, more in the spring than fall. Easily stows in the locker across from the head. I actually used it 2 weeks ago to heat the boat when installing a new radio and AIS...heated the boat fine and I had to start taking off layers. Temp was around 0 C.

I also have the Coleman heater that you screw the propane bottle onto. One bottle lasted about 8 hrs on that and it heated the boat for years before I picked up the little buddy. With both heaters I open the oven door and put the heater on it. Put the doors in the boat and leave sliding hatch open 3 inches. That provides ample air flow along with the factory vents on that particular boat. No issues and the boat will be warm. The buddy heater is best though, and it's out of the way when not in use.

As for explosions. Well no ignition sources active when working on fuel, if you smell fuel or even suspect a fuel issue. If I smelled gas in the boat I wouldn't even flick the power switch.

Now, there is another reasonable option. There are boat heaters on amazon, diesel run, much like espars. They run in the $300 range and "If" I was spending a lot of time on the boat in the winter I'd consider it. I considered it last year and would put one of those in ahead of any bulkhead mounted heater....BUT....for the amount of time I use a heater I'm just setting myself up for something else to break and or maintain.

I hope that helps with your thought process on the heaters.

EDIT:
Lil Buddy you get about 4, maybe 5 hours out of little propane bottle with setting on low. Low is all you need to heat the boat.
The Coleman heater: about 8 hours on a little propane bottle.

Both warm the boat although the Lil Buddy kicks off real heat real fast.

Never ever used both the same time. The Coleman heater sits in the cabinet above the table and hasn't come out in a number of years.

2nd Edit. Forgot to mention my very first boat heater which was among the best. The good óle propane lantern. Sitting on the table or hanging off the mast via a bent coat hanger hook...they work. Use one and occasionally still do. That lantern alone will keep the boat comfortable coming in out of the rain in spring summer and fall and dry your stuff as well. It's generally on of the first things guys buy around here. Buy the one with the one wick (thingy) and not the double. One is perfect, the other one is too hot.

Thanks for the amazing info. You may have convinced me not to get a solid fuel heater and it’s really a shame, I love the smell and ambiance, but I’m not sure I’d like to keep cleaning the dodger and being downwind if the chimney. The boat is at a mooring.

Regarding the Coleman heater, won’t this potentially cause CO2 poisoning if I run it in the boat?

[joe_db]

I would not suggest any kind of unvented heater for a couple of reasons, one big one being the huge amount of water vapor released into the cabin that condenses and drips on everything.
If you can get one of the knock-off Espars, rig it up with its own fuel tank and use kerosene instead of diesel. I used to work on Espars and they would tend to carbon up if fed very cold diesel fuel.
I never really noticed any issue with our wood stove on our Dickerson damaged the deck or canvas, but the flu was probably 30 feet forward of the cockpit, which isn't happening on a 30 foot boat. Once of my jobs as a kid on fall/winter cruises was to row ashore and collect driftwood to burn in the stove.

[Mo]

Thanks for the amazing info. You may have convinced me not to get a solid fuel heater and it’s really a shame, I love the smell and ambiance, but I’m not sure I’d like to keep cleaning the dodger and being downwind if the chimney. The boat is at a mooring.

Regarding the Coleman heater, won’t this potentially cause CO2 poisoning if I run it in the boat?

Any heater would need a CO2 detector installed unless you are going to allow the hatch to be open, all of them. Every heater requires a certain amount of cubic feet of ventilation to the outside. Your C&C 30 has two vents at the cabin top and two at the transom. I've never had condensation in the boat at any time with a heater going. That hatch cover is left open 4 inches (I would not run a heater with it closed)...that sounds like a lot but it would have to be pretty friggin cold and windy for you to have to close it up. The under cockpit vents (on transom) in combination with the cabin top keeps air moving through the boat. Mold buildup within the boat, at any time, is a good indicator of ventilation. Some boats gather mold in a couple of weeks unattended, others it takes a months...but ventilation is always the key. If yours is like mine you would also have a vent at the bow where the anchor chain hawser is. The propane lantern is just as warm as the coleman heater as well. Again the hatch needs to be left open enough..cubic ft of fresh air opening. The coleman heater I calculated the hatch had to be open about 2 inches..that was it. But it got too hot in there anyway so I got in the habit of keeping it open 4 inches. It needs 6 square inches of ventilation...that's it. I used the lantern and coleman catalytic heater pretty much for 8 or 9 years without issue with 4 of us on the boat.

As for a permanent heater. An Espar type would be my first choice. My second choice would be this

https://ca.binnacle.com/product_info.php?products_id=8323

[ndutton]

It applies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoOrUh4a_j0&feature=youtu.be

[Mo]

Yeah it does...so does common sense...not so common obviously.

[ndutton]

As originally purchased my boat had a Force 10 heater, CNG fueled if I remember. The flue through the deck was a constant source of leaks and I found I could warm up the cabin better by baking a batch of cookies or biscuits in the oven. My circumstances are different though being in a warm climate.

[sastanley]

It applies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoOr...ature=youtu.be

I had not heard anything about this, but it is only about 1 hour north of me. It is crazy what people will do. I have a pellet stove in the house (with a CO detector between my bedroom and the stove).
I have no heat source on the boat, but I even have a 4AA CO detector on the boat since it is gas powered.

[Mo]

No perfect solution

Neil, I've heard of leaking issues as well. A friend did a modification to put a screw on cap that kept spray out while underway. When I asked him what he does to stay warm on the boat underway he said he doesn't run the Force 10 while underway.

Personally, I've been cold out there sailing as well and I'm sure if I had a big enough boat I'd have something geared up. My friend Bill won't run his espar underway on a C&C 38 Landfall but loves it when he's alongside and feeling a chill.

If I catch a break I plan to sail Odyssey to Newfoundland this summer. The water and air is cool there, much more so due to fog where the Labrador current and Gulf Stream meet. It will be cool but will have to dress for it.

This past summer we had a Hurricane Teddy coming up the Atlantic and the forecasters here were saying "the water is 5 degrees warmer this year". It was misinformation, and I knew it, because all summer I had to put on my light down jacket 2 miles out from land. On those days I wished I had something to blow warm air right at me (wishful thinking). It was cold off the coast all year, Teddy was a dud and dropped out his winds as soon as he came out of the Gulf Stream. The water temp change was so drastic he wasn't even a tropical storm hitting here, I was tempted to sail. I didn't take the boat out of the water, although people did due to media hype. 2020 was the coldest summer off the coast I'd experienced in 22 years of sailing.

All said, it's still only a few times a year I use heat. People in Newfoundland certainly would need it but they have a much shorter season. Realistically, it's the 3rd week of June around here before we sail across the harbour wearing a T-Shirt. I supposed it is all what we've become accustomed to.

[ndutton]

No way would I operate a flame type heating system underway without it being actively monitored. That is, cabin crew assigned to monitor it for safety. At anchor, tip safety and CO monitoring would seem sufficient.

In such frigid climes I think I would be attracted to a boat with an inside steering station (see Capital Yachts line of Gulf sailboats, 27, 29 and 32) and consider an automotive type heater core with an electric forced air fan off of a FWC engine cooling system. Mmmm, warm and toasty.