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Old 12-23-2020, 08:12 AM
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Heater safety with an atomic 4 engine?

Hello everyone,

I would like to install a solid fuel heater on my atomic 4 powered C&C 30. If I even mention the thought on the other forums, I get warned that it’s a suicidal gesture and that it’s only a matter of time before my boat explodes. How many of you have a heater on your boat and are there any additional safety precautions I can employ to reduce the likelihood of an explosion? I’ve been thinking of installing a gas fume detector and solar powered vent but I’d appreciate any other suggestions.
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Old 12-23-2020, 09:56 AM
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I do not have a heater currently, my last boat had a wood stove. The last boat was diesel powered.
Look at it this way, would you close yourself in a room with an engine and a tank of gas and then build a fire in the fireplace? Probably not, but if you did you would be VERY careful.
OTOH you already cook over an open flame in that same room, so what's the big deal?
My reservation is that while I do cook on a gas stove, I surely wouldn't turn it on if I smelled gasoline and I turn it off before I go to sleep. If I fire up a cabin heater, I may well be asleep while it runs and then you are essentially betting your life your needle valve is perfect. If I did hook up a wood stove, I would make sure and have both a CO detector and gasoline fume detector. Also I would not rely on the needle valve. When I shut down at the end of the day I turn the fuel pump off and let the engine run the gas out of the carb and hose. That way there is no gasoline waiting to leak
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:49 AM
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i use a catalytic "buddy heater" designed for enclosed spaces, runs on one lb. propane cylinders and has low o2 shutoff and tip over safety. so far no problems (10yrs)
just use common sense and keep your fuel system/engine and ventilation system in good shape.
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Old 12-23-2020, 06:30 PM
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Maybe this will help.

I have a C&C 30. For a number of years I've had a solid fuel heater sitting in my garage. I was recently offered a propane dickinson heater for the boat as well and backed off that although it was cheap. Here is why.

First and foremost I'd lose too much room in the cabin. The only place it can go is the on the stb forward bulkhead and then it takes up room from the settee on that side. There's no room on the table side behind the mast as a person couldn't sit there. You can put it on the stb side but you just lost a lot of useful cabin space.

Secondly. Re: Solid Fuel. The biggest draw back is that it does have adverse effects on deck and in the cockpit. The boat on a mooring...the wind blows back. It's been know to darken the deck, and dodger material and windows etc and you know you are sitting behind a chimney. Then there is cleaning and removing the tray...right above the settee seat...mess.

Propane Heater - Dickinson. Clean on deck, no adverse effects on dodger if mounted stb side forward bulkhead. Major Heat right now!

Both Propane and solid fuel heater. They kick off so much heat and there are two safety issues. These I know of from other unfortunates that have made these mistakes. 1. generally on in inclement weather. I don't know how many people burned their expensive wet weather gear walking by on the way to the head. 2. Falling into it and burns...typically hands...most of the time it's not on and voila, you know when it is!

I'm in Nova Scotia. Boat comes out in late October and back in late April or May. What I use is the "Lil Buddy Heater" and realistically its used a few of times a year, more in the spring than fall. Easily stows in the locker across from the head. I actually used it 2 weeks ago to heat the boat when installing a new radio and AIS...heated the boat fine and I had to start taking off layers. Temp was around 0 C.

I also have the Coleman heater that you screw the propane bottle onto. One bottle lasted about 8 hrs on that and it heated the boat for years before I picked up the little buddy. With both heaters I open the oven door and put the heater on it. Put the doors in the boat and leave sliding hatch open 3 inches. That provides ample air flow along with the factory vents on that particular boat. No issues and the boat will be warm. The buddy heater is best though, and it's out of the way when not in use.

As for explosions. Well no ignition sources active when working on fuel, if you smell fuel or even suspect a fuel issue. If I smelled gas in the boat I wouldn't even flick the power switch.

Now, there is another reasonable option. There are boat heaters on amazon, diesel run, much like espars. They run in the $300 range and "If" I was spending a lot of time on the boat in the winter I'd consider it. I considered it last year and would put one of those in ahead of any bulkhead mounted heater....BUT....for the amount of time I use a heater I'm just setting myself up for something else to break and or maintain.

I hope that helps with your thought process on the heaters.

EDIT:
Lil Buddy you get about 4, maybe 5 hours out of little propane bottle with setting on low. Low is all you need to heat the boat.
The Coleman heater: about 8 hours on a little propane bottle.

Both warm the boat although the Lil Buddy kicks off real heat real fast.

Never ever used both the same time. The Coleman heater sits in the cabinet above the table and hasn't come out in a number of years.

2nd Edit. Forgot to mention my very first boat heater which was among the best. The good óle propane lantern. Sitting on the table or hanging off the mast via a bent coat hanger hook...they work. Use one and occasionally still do. That lantern alone will keep the boat comfortable coming in out of the rain in spring summer and fall and dry your stuff as well. It's generally on of the first things guys buy around here. Buy the one with the one wick (thingy) and not the double. One is perfect, the other one is too hot.
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Last edited by Mo; 12-23-2020 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 12-23-2020, 09:25 PM
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Ask those experts on the other forums what cooking fuel they use. Propane? Vapors heavier than air (like gasoline), a similar explosive force and unlike gasoline, stored under pressure.

Ignorance is bliss.
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Old 12-23-2020, 09:42 PM
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In my years, I've tried a few things for cabin heat.
First was the flower pot over an alcohol burner. It put out some heat but not really satisfactory. Worst was the water vapor into the cabin which found plenty of places to condense. Decided that any future heater needed to be vented outside.

Tried a Force 10 kero heater. 1" stainless flue pipe with a small deck fitting. Worked well when new, but heat seemed to be limited to a cone around the heater. I had no issue leaving running on a low heat all night. Problem was maintenance on the Patria burner. Tried working on it onboard and almost burned down the boat. Brought it home to work on and almost burned down the house! A propane unit might have been better, but still with the cone of heat near the unit. Personally, never went further.

Best units I've had experience with (other peoples boats) are the Espar hot air units. Come back to the boat with your teeth chattering, flip the switch, and in 10 minutes you're comfy. Do a reasonable job with the ducts and it will warm the entire boat.
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Old 12-24-2020, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo View Post
I have a C&C 30. For a number of years I've had a solid fuel heater sitting in my garage. I was recently offered a propane dickinson heater for the boat as well and backed off that although it was cheap. Here is why.

First and foremost I'd lose too much room in the cabin. The only place it can go is the on the stb forward bulkhead and then it takes up room from the settee on that side. There's no room on the table side behind the mast as a person couldn't sit there. You can put it on the stb side but you just lost a lot of useful cabin space.

Secondly. Re: Solid Fuel. The biggest draw back is that it does have adverse effects on deck and in the cockpit. The boat on a mooring...the wind blows back. It's been know to darken the deck, and dodger material and windows etc and you know you are sitting behind a chimney. Then there is cleaning and removing the tray...right above the settee seat...mess.

Propane Heater - Dickinson. Clean on deck, no adverse effects on dodger if mounted stb side forward bulkhead. Major Heat right now!

Both Propane and solid fuel heater. They kick off so much heat and there are two safety issues. These I know of from other unfortunates that have made these mistakes. 1. generally on in inclement weather. I don't know how many people burned their expensive wet weather gear walking by on the way to the head. 2. Falling into it and burns...typically hands...most of the time it's not on and voila, you know when it is!

I'm in Nova Scotia. Boat comes out in late October and back in late April or May. What I use is the "Lil Buddy Heater" and realistically its used a few of times a year, more in the spring than fall. Easily stows in the locker across from the head. I actually used it 2 weeks ago to heat the boat when installing a new radio and AIS...heated the boat fine and I had to start taking off layers. Temp was around 0 C.

I also have the Coleman heater that you screw the propane bottle onto. One bottle lasted about 8 hrs on that and it heated the boat for years before I picked up the little buddy. With both heaters I open the oven door and put the heater on it. Put the doors in the boat and leave sliding hatch open 3 inches. That provides ample air flow along with the factory vents on that particular boat. No issues and the boat will be warm. The buddy heater is best though, and it's out of the way when not in use.

As for explosions. Well no ignition sources active when working on fuel, if you smell fuel or even suspect a fuel issue. If I smelled gas in the boat I wouldn't even flick the power switch.

Now, there is another reasonable option. There are boat heaters on amazon, diesel run, much like espars. They run in the $300 range and "If" I was spending a lot of time on the boat in the winter I'd consider it. I considered it last year and would put one of those in ahead of any bulkhead mounted heater....BUT....for the amount of time I use a heater I'm just setting myself up for something else to break and or maintain.

I hope that helps with your thought process on the heaters.

EDIT:
Lil Buddy you get about 4, maybe 5 hours out of little propane bottle with setting on low. Low is all you need to heat the boat.
The Coleman heater: about 8 hours on a little propane bottle.

Both warm the boat although the Lil Buddy kicks off real heat real fast.

Never ever used both the same time. The Coleman heater sits in the cabinet above the table and hasn't come out in a number of years.

2nd Edit. Forgot to mention my very first boat heater which was among the best. The good óle propane lantern. Sitting on the table or hanging off the mast via a bent coat hanger hook...they work. Use one and occasionally still do. That lantern alone will keep the boat comfortable coming in out of the rain in spring summer and fall and dry your stuff as well. It's generally on of the first things guys buy around here. Buy the one with the one wick (thingy) and not the double. One is perfect, the other one is too hot.

Thanks for the amazing info. You may have convinced me not to get a solid fuel heater and it’s really a shame, I love the smell and ambiance, but I’m not sure I’d like to keep cleaning the dodger and being downwind if the chimney. The boat is at a mooring.

Regarding the Coleman heater, won’t this potentially cause CO2 poisoning if I run it in the boat?
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Old 12-24-2020, 04:41 PM
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I would not suggest any kind of unvented heater for a couple of reasons, one big one being the huge amount of water vapor released into the cabin that condenses and drips on everything.
If you can get one of the knock-off Espars, rig it up with its own fuel tank and use kerosene instead of diesel. I used to work on Espars and they would tend to carbon up if fed very cold diesel fuel.
I never really noticed any issue with our wood stove on our Dickerson damaged the deck or canvas, but the flu was probably 30 feet forward of the cockpit, which isn't happening on a 30 foot boat. Once of my jobs as a kid on fall/winter cruises was to row ashore and collect driftwood to burn in the stove.

Last edited by joe_db; 12-24-2020 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 12-24-2020, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donoharm View Post
Thanks for the amazing info. You may have convinced me not to get a solid fuel heater and it’s really a shame, I love the smell and ambiance, but I’m not sure I’d like to keep cleaning the dodger and being downwind if the chimney. The boat is at a mooring.

Regarding the Coleman heater, won’t this potentially cause CO2 poisoning if I run it in the boat?
Any heater would need a CO2 detector installed unless you are going to allow the hatch to be open, all of them. Every heater requires a certain amount of cubic feet of ventilation to the outside. Your C&C 30 has two vents at the cabin top and two at the transom. I've never had condensation in the boat at any time with a heater going. That hatch cover is left open 4 inches (I would not run a heater with it closed)...that sounds like a lot but it would have to be pretty friggin cold and windy for you to have to close it up. The under cockpit vents (on transom) in combination with the cabin top keeps air moving through the boat. Mold buildup within the boat, at any time, is a good indicator of ventilation. Some boats gather mold in a couple of weeks unattended, others it takes a months...but ventilation is always the key. If yours is like mine you would also have a vent at the bow where the anchor chain hawser is. The propane lantern is just as warm as the coleman heater as well. Again the hatch needs to be left open enough..cubic ft of fresh air opening. The coleman heater I calculated the hatch had to be open about 2 inches..that was it. But it got too hot in there anyway so I got in the habit of keeping it open 4 inches. It needs 6 square inches of ventilation...that's it. I used the lantern and coleman catalytic heater pretty much for 8 or 9 years without issue with 4 of us on the boat.

As for a permanent heater. An Espar type would be my first choice. My second choice would be this
https://ca.binnacle.com/product_info...oducts_id=8323
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 12-24-2020, 07:33 PM
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It applies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoOr...ature=youtu.be
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Old 12-24-2020, 10:33 PM
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Yeah it does...so does common sense...not so common obviously.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 12-25-2020, 12:03 PM
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As originally purchased my boat had a Force 10 heater, CNG fueled if I remember. The flue through the deck was a constant source of leaks and I found I could warm up the cabin better by baking a batch of cookies or biscuits in the oven. My circumstances are different though being in a warm climate.
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Old 12-25-2020, 10:59 PM
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I had not heard anything about this, but it is only about 1 hour north of me. It is crazy what people will do. I have a pellet stove in the house (with a CO detector between my bedroom and the stove).
I have no heat source on the boat, but I even have a 4AA CO detector on the boat since it is gas powered.
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Old 12-26-2020, 06:49 AM
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No perfect solution

Neil, I've heard of leaking issues as well. A friend did a modification to put a screw on cap that kept spray out while underway. When I asked him what he does to stay warm on the boat underway he said he doesn't run the Force 10 while underway.

Personally, I've been cold out there sailing as well and I'm sure if I had a big enough boat I'd have something geared up. My friend Bill won't run his espar underway on a C&C 38 Landfall but loves it when he's alongside and feeling a chill.

If I catch a break I plan to sail Odyssey to Newfoundland this summer. The water and air is cool there, much more so due to fog where the Labrador current and Gulf Stream meet. It will be cool but will have to dress for it.

This past summer we had a Hurricane Teddy coming up the Atlantic and the forecasters here were saying "the water is 5 degrees warmer this year". It was misinformation, and I knew it, because all summer I had to put on my light down jacket 2 miles out from land. On those days I wished I had something to blow warm air right at me (wishful thinking). It was cold off the coast all year, Teddy was a dud and dropped out his winds as soon as he came out of the Gulf Stream. The water temp change was so drastic he wasn't even a tropical storm hitting here, I was tempted to sail. I didn't take the boat out of the water, although people did due to media hype. 2020 was the coldest summer off the coast I'd experienced in 22 years of sailing.

All said, it's still only a few times a year I use heat. People in Newfoundland certainly would need it but they have a much shorter season. Realistically, it's the 3rd week of June around here before we sail across the harbour wearing a T-Shirt. I supposed it is all what we've become accustomed to.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 12-26-2020 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 12-26-2020, 11:21 AM
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No way would I operate a flame type heating system underway without it being actively monitored. That is, cabin crew assigned to monitor it for safety. At anchor, tip safety and CO monitoring would seem sufficient.

In such frigid climes I think I would be attracted to a boat with an inside steering station (see Capital Yachts line of Gulf sailboats, 27, 29 and 32) and consider an automotive type heater core with an electric forced air fan off of a FWC engine cooling system. Mmmm, warm and toasty.
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Old 12-26-2020, 12:02 PM
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The thing I like about the Espars is they suck in combustion air from outside and vent the exhaust outside. This adds a layer of safety.
The wood/coal stove on our old Dickerson sucked air from inside the boat and up the flu, it seems to help dry things out. When I am cooking in the winter I need to crack the hatch or I get water condensing on various things, which somewhat defeats the purpose of trying to use a cooking stove to heat the boat.
One invention I have for long winter trips is 4 socks. 2 are on my feet and 2 are on the engine. You swap socks about every half hour. Be warned, if you have smelly socks the crew will mutiny
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Old 12-28-2020, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
No way would I operate a flame type heating system underway without it being actively monitored. That is, cabin crew assigned to monitor it for safety. At anchor, tip safety and CO monitoring would seem sufficient.

In such frigid climes I think I would be attracted to a boat with an inside steering station (see Capital Yachts line of Gulf sailboats, 27, 29 and 32) and consider an automotive type heater core with an electric forced air fan off of a FWC engine cooling system. Mmmm, warm and toasty.
The concern is have with this is if you’re monitoring for safety and you start to smell gas, isn’t it already too late?


Quote:
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The thing I like about the Espars is they suck in combustion air from outside and vent the exhaust outside. This adds a layer of safety.
The wood/coal stove on our old Dickerson sucked air from inside the boat and up the flu, it seems to help dry things out. When I am cooking in the winter I need to crack the hatch or I get water condensing on various things, which somewhat defeats the purpose of trying to use a cooking stove to heat the boat.
One invention I have for long winter trips is 4 socks. 2 are on my feet and 2 are on the engine. You swap socks about every half hour. Be warned, if you have smelly socks the crew will mutiny
Exactly, the espar is great, but it’s a damp heat whereas the solid fuel or diesel will make a dry heat.
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Old 12-28-2020, 07:39 AM
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I'd say if you are still able to smell gas you're able to shut off the heater or any other source of ignition. How is this any different than a stove onboard? And as for gas leaks, I think this demonstrates how important keeping our fuel systems in top condition really is.
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Old 12-28-2020, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
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The concern is have with this is if you’re monitoring for safety and you start to smell gas, isn’t it already too late?




Exactly, the espar is great, but it’s a damp heat whereas the solid fuel or diesel will make a dry heat.
Espars are not damp. All combustion products go overboard.
* I used to work on them
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Old 12-28-2020, 08:30 AM
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Espars are not damp. All combustion products go overboard.
* I used to work on them
I haven’t used either so I’ll take your word for it. But wouldn’t a heat source that takes air from inside the cabin dry out that air? If the espar will take air from inside and push it back inside, I worry that cold surfaces like fiberglass bulkheads will cause condensation and mold.
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Old 12-28-2020, 10:43 AM
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The thing I like about the Espars is they suck in combustion air from outside and vent the exhaust outside. This adds a layer of safety.
The wood/coal stove on our old Dickerson sucked air from inside the boat and up the flu, it seems to help dry things out. When I am cooking in the winter I need to crack the hatch or I get water condensing on various things, which somewhat defeats the purpose of trying to use a cooking stove to heat the boat.
One invention I have for long winter trips is 4 socks. 2 are on my feet and 2 are on the engine. You swap socks about every half hour. Be warned, if you have smelly socks the crew will mutiny
I think an Espar type is the way to go if you really need a heater. Apparently they too have a hard time keeping up in cold weather. A wood stove would work fine but IMHO I think they should be custom made and then you have insurance issues. That one I have in the garage is constructed very light. As for the warm socks there is also another trick sailing offshore in cool weather. It's the racers trick and the guys that do the Marblehead to Halifax, Rhode Island to Bermuda etc do it. They boil eggs and put them in their pocket then warm their hands with them. Once cool they eat the egg. Never heard of it until my buddy George, who has done both races multiple times told, me about it. My thought was, "so how many eggs are you bringing".
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Old 12-28-2020, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by donoharm View Post
I haven’t used either so I’ll take your word for it. But wouldn’t a heat source that takes air from inside the cabin dry out that air? If the espar will take air from inside and push it back inside, I worry that cold surfaces like fiberglass bulkheads will cause condensation and mold.
In moderately cool weather I don't think you will have a condensation issue at all. This morning it was 23F here and I was down on the boat. Fired up the little buddy heater and did the few things I wanted to get done. Again, left the hatch cover open about 4 inches. The boat warmed up, wind was light, so it wasn't being sucked right out. Anytime you keep a boat ventilated it will stay dry. Most every heater we talked about will build enough heat in the temp I just mentioned to keep the boat warm...we'd be opening the hatch anyway because the heat will drive us out of there LOL. On cool days like today though, I find my feet do feel the cool because I generally feel the heat from the knees up as we are venting the unit...the floor area is cooler. But condensation really wouldn't be much of an issue unless everything is closed up and tight.

Some people here know I used to work winters in the Arctic. One winter about 12 years ago I lived in an prefab insulated tent for 3 months with a gravity fed oil stove in it...Temp was -40 C almost everyday in the dark winter. I'd have one upper corner of a window unzipped about a foot to maintain some sort of equilibrium on temp. Again, cooler at the floor but awesome for sleeping. No condensation though.
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  #23   IP: 138.207.177.95
Old 12-28-2020, 11:48 AM
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An Espar is like an electric heater, it creates hot air. It neither adds nor subtracts air from inside the boat. It does not add moisture nor remove it. It can "keep up" just fine if large enough for the boat and the climate. Some of the ones I installed would drive you out of the boat if turned up full blast. Nothing stopping you from cracking a hatch if you want to.
My biggest condensation issue is water dripping off the forward hatch, which unfortunately lands right on my face
The problem is the metal and plexiglass frame might be 25 degrees and the inside of the cabin might be 70 degrees and you are sleeping right under it exhaling warm moist air. The easy solution is to get a yoga mat and some chain to weight it down and put the rubber mat over the hatch. The foam rubber insulates the hatch and ends the dripping issue. Do NOT tie the mat down, you need to be able to open the hatch and climb out. See dive boat fire
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  #24   IP: 73.192.77.162
Old 12-28-2020, 01:18 PM
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Heater

Hey,
Why not a heater that uses the jacket water circulated, like the ones you used to see on the old school buses and the type that some of the old heavy equipment have.

There are many versions available from Defender and Hamilton and also other sources online that use DC fans to distribute the heat through ducts.
Has the added benefit of charging your batteries when you get your toes and fingers warm.
Then bundle up and tough it out the rest of the day :-)

I do have a two burner alcohol stove on board but I really don’t even like to use that. I always defer to a Forespar sea swing type propane unit that’s attached to a bracket outside and use my magma gas grill this mounted off the rail. And yes I store the propane bottles in a pvc rack that’s outside the hull.... if the bottles were stored inside the rail or cockpit, the water in the cockpit scuppers would effectively be like a J trap on the bathroom sink, If the stored bottles were to leak, trapping gas in the cockpit. Possibly on a still day without much wind this would not be good.

We are vigilant about keeping water from our cockpit from a wave pooped stern from going down below.
I feel like we should be just as vigilant in preventing accumulated propane from spilling over into the cabin also.

I do have a two burner alcohol stove, but really I’m quite paranoid even though I sniff the bilge like a hound dog.
I pretty much defer to any source of ignition being reserved for the engine only, at the spark plugs.
I’m just too paranoid about it all and for a good reason.

Vigilance is prudent when gasoline combustion engines are down in your cabin.
If you play it safe then you don’t have all those weird thoughts in the back of your mind when you retire for the evening in a snug anchorage in a snug Vee.

Cheers!!

Elizabeth

Last edited by Elizabeth_B29; 12-28-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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  #25   IP: 138.207.177.95
Old 12-28-2020, 03:57 PM
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Radiator heaters surely can work well with FWC engines, the coolant from a RWC engine is liable to be not that hot and many heater cores are not designed to deal with salt water.
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