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Old 04-04-2022, 09:59 AM
RhodeRunner RhodeRunner is offline
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Engine won't start

(moved from different thread)
I bought my Catalina 30 last year. Engine started up while on the hard with the owner. Now in the water it won't start.

New Fuel filter
Changed oil
New spark plugs
New fuel pump
Disassembled and cleaned Carburetor
Disassembled and tuned up starter.
New charged battery
New Coil
Thought it might be electric ignition - changed back to points. good sparks
Friday---Progress, engine started to turn over, but didn't pick up. Though it might be carburetor, which has excessive amounts of gas in it.(more than just a puddle) Dissembled and looked at carburetor again. Now Sunday wont even ignite. Still has good spark. Help. I need to move this boat out of this slip.

Small Update: Engine cranks over for a moment. I didn't have time to adjust the choke much before it dies again. I have been able to repeat this a couple times.

At initial purchase, I did replaced the corroded sparkplugs, changed the fuel filter and oil. The boat had been on the hard for a couple of seasons.

Because the engine wouldn't start and because I didn’t have much info to diagnose the problem and looked to resolve one system at a time.

Pulled the starter and cleaned and confirmed it worked along with the solenoid on the bench. Starter moved the cylinders, and was able to feal pressure at each of the cylinder. Although #3 was weaker than the others. Did not gauge the pressure.

Salt water valve is OFF and has been for all attempts. Fresh water system is installed.

Noticed leaking at the coil head, with week sparks. Replaced coil.

Weak sparks continued. When checking the multimeter, the voltage in the system dropped to around 10v when the eclectic ignition was connected. This suggested that there was an issue with the ignition. The previous owner had said that he did not trust the electric ignition much, and that it only liked the batteries to be at full charge. This lead to replacing the E ignition to traditional points. These gave a good spark at plug.

Replaced fuel pump because the aftermarket fuel pump installed near the tank was unreliable. Installed an engine mounted Facet

Thanks for anyone's input. Admittedly this is a new area for me, any guidance would be appreciated. -RR

Last edited by RhodeRunner; 04-04-2022 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 04-04-2022, 10:15 AM
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Old 04-04-2022, 10:49 AM
RhodeRunner RhodeRunner is offline
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Hi Dave - thanks for the new thread advice.

I did have a look at the distributer. the weights are free and moving nice. There is a spring that will need replacing soon.

I went through the process of setting up #1 TDC per the diagram: https://moyermarine.com/splug_wire_routing/
which has #1 flywheel end. is the diagram incorrect?

Thanks for your responses
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Old 04-04-2022, 11:03 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Sorry, I got my post mixed. #1 is at the flywheel end. Now you need to determine the distributor position. The position shown is only correct if the distributor was NEVER removed and or when removed it was put back in the same "factory" position which is not necessary. This position is not always the same.

Turn the engine to where you are on the compression stroke AND #1 is at TDC! Then look to see where the distributor rotor is pointing, that is where the number one plug wire goes.

The distributor can be in almost any tooth of the gears when being replaced and if it is number one can point almost anywhere and still be set correctly. You just need to place #1 where the rotor is pointing then follow the firing order for the rest.

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Old 04-04-2022, 01:06 PM
RhodeRunner RhodeRunner is offline
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Smile

I did early on look to see if the #1 was TDC, I will double check. I don't have good access to the flywheel.
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Old 04-04-2022, 01:41 PM
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Thumbs up

Had a double look. set up correctly for #1 TDC. Rotor pointing away from engine and in alignment with the tab.. FWIW when I first looked at this, when still an electric ignition the rotor was at the #2 position for #1 TDC, and I changed it.
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Old 04-04-2022, 01:49 PM
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Hello RR.

Your earlier post stated: "Small Update: Engine cranks over for a moment. I didn't have time to adjust the choke much before it dies again. I have been able to repeat this a couple times."

Have you checked to see that the choke is operating correctly? See this thread for more info, especially post #6:

https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...ead.php?t=4997

I'm curious why you "didn't have time" to adjust the choke before the engine died. Is the choke cable not near the ignition switch? Are you using an ignition switch in the cockpit or a 'remote' starter near the engine?

jack
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Old 04-04-2022, 01:55 PM
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If it ran with the "electronic ign" then the wires should be in the same spots as before unless you moved the distributor!

Top Dead Center of #1 cylinder does not MEAN the rotor should point away from the block. That is only true from the factory. The distributor has probably been moved more than a few times since delivery and it is not necessary to reinstall pointing away. Most mechanics will drop the distributor back in while #1 is on TDC and start the wiring where the rotor points as it can point in many directions depending on how it was dropped into the "gears teeth".

Go back to where the wires were and see what happens, I think it will work if you did not remove the distributor, did you?

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Old 04-04-2022, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RhodeRunner View Post
Had a double look. set up correctly for #1 TDC. Rotor pointing away from engine and in alignment with the tab.. FWIW when I first looked at this, when still an electric ignition the rotor was at the #2 position for #1 TDC, and I changed it.
  1. Did the engine ever run with electronic ignition before you made this change?
  2. Was the distributor EVER removed since it last ran?
  3. Exactly how did you determine the engine was set at #1 TDC? Please provide as much detail as possible.

I am soooo thinking this is a timing problem and from what I'm reading I'm not alone.
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Old 04-04-2022, 05:40 PM
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Jack: I working with the remote start and manually adjusting the choke right in the engine compartment.

Dave: now that I am working off the points and not the electronic ignition, I would think it would be best to align the rotor with the plug leads?
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Old 04-04-2022, 06:22 PM
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You have gone from one style of ignition to another which means you need to set the timing!

You changed the wires which changes the timing per your statement. To fix you need to index the distributor IE set the timing. To set the timing you need to bring the crank shaft to the compression stroke of #1 cylinder at TDC. Then index the distributor to factory setting if you wish or start @1 wire where the rotor points to get the wires right then you "close" enough to set the timing.

One more thing is did you remove the distributor to do the change over or did it still set in the engine?

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Old 04-05-2022, 02:26 AM
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just in case ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ysFGcm8oNo&t=284s
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Old 04-06-2022, 06:32 PM
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Agree with Neil, Welcome RhodeRunner! I ended up cutting a hole (hole saw) in the settee so i could get a crank handle into the flywheel and see the roll pin. There are also several other tests to check for TDC..A small screwdriver or maybe a pencil in the plug hole and check when it is at its highest point. Neil also has a cool trick with a balloon on hollowed out plug threads.

I had my engine quit on my way out for a sail a few years ago..Somehow the timing got off..I rotated the dizzy gingerly while my crew cranked the starter (while we were still out sailing) and it eventually ran for the ride home.

Also..as a new boat owner a tip we always share (I will also admit I did not read every previous response), do not crank for too long (more than several seconds) with the raw water intake open in non-start situations..the muffler will fill with sea water and backfill up the hot section into the manifold/cylinders. My motor is down on compression in cyl #4 from the PO doing this more than once.
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Old 04-06-2022, 08:15 PM
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Thanks Shawn. Now, if I could only motivate RhodeRunner to answer my questions I (and others) might be able to offer some help.
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Old 04-06-2022, 10:02 PM
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Sometimes it takes a few days...hopefully he'll get back to us!!
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Old 04-06-2022, 11:33 PM
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Setting rotor position on distributor

I'm having a similar problem. I was fixing the water jacket inspection plate and had to remove the distributor. I screwed up and didn't mark the rotor position. I have a magnetic ignition, boat ran fine before I tryed to "fix" it...

I watched Moyer's video. I went through trying to find TDC on #1 cylinder and then pointing the rotor away from the block. Still wouldn't start. Tried moving the distributor back and forth and the best I could get was a few small backfires.

I guess I didn't have TDC on #1 figured out correctly. I couldn't feel the compression very well while turning it. Can't see the piston and not sure I understand the pencil trick very well. Thinking of getting my compression tester gauge and seeing if I can see it then...?

Is there something different I need to do if I have an electronic ignition? Any ideas on getting the rotor in the right position would be appreciated.

TIA,
Jack
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Old 04-06-2022, 11:41 PM
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See if this helps:
https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...9&postcount=10
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Old 04-07-2022, 07:34 AM
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slightly off topic;
the best thing I ever did for my Catalina 30 A4 (electronic ignition notwithstanding) is replace the wiring harness. all new wire, properly color coded and slightly oversize from the engine to the dashboard and eliminating those nasty trailer plugs along with the ammeter with its associated long charging circuit. Had a lot of funky intermittent shutdown gremlins previously.
on topic;
IF the engine ran before you did something, then the something you did is likely the problem. backtrack.
Also, I can't stress enough the importance of the anti-siphon loop; critical system for Cat30 IMHO. Once you get the engine sorted, make sure the anti-siphon is working properly
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Old 04-07-2022, 09:11 AM
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If memory serves me right there are 16 teeth (a guess) maybe a couple more.

If the engine is on the compression stroke of #1 at TDC there are 16 different directions you can install the distributor IE 16 directions the rotor can point. Any one of these 16 directions WILL WORK JUST FINE. Only the factory sets it in pointing away from the block for manufacturing purposes and speed of production.

When the piston is on TDC of #1 compression stroke the direction the rotor points, IS the number 1 firing position and can easily start the engine if you start there with the #1 plug wire (ignoring the cap #1) and she is close enough to start and fine tune.

If you want it just like the factory bring #1 to TDC on the compression stroke and THEN install the distributor with the rotor pointing away like at the factory.

Also note the distributor only fires at 4 precise positions 90* apart any where in between the coil is charging. This space between is what allows you to rotate the distributor for fine tuning.

Most mechanics absolutely ignore the factory position because to set it you must look up the info for proper positioning but if you UNDFERSTAND timing you set TDC of #1 on compression stroke and just drop the distributor in and start from there!

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Old 04-07-2022, 11:28 AM
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Guys, the problem I'm having is finding TDC of #1.

Jack
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Old 04-07-2022, 11:56 AM
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Jack, I would use the alternator to rotate the engine whenever the flywheel is not accessible. Just squeeze the belt and rotate the alt, the engine will turn easily.

Rotate the engine while feeling for the piston to get to the top. When the #1 piston is at the top you are on the "exhaust or compression" stroke. You should be able to feel for the valves and or see them. Both should be closed to be on compression. If you can't figure the compression or exhaust stroke go ahead and place your plug wires, #1 where the rotor points. Then try to start if no start with fuel or starting fluid then you are what is called 180* out of time. Just rotate the wires 180* on the cap and try again. Done this many times on an A-4.

If you have the #1 piston at the top and aren't sure you have a 50 ~ 50 chance of being right and it is easy to move the wires 180* on the cap.

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Old 04-07-2022, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackConnick View Post
Guys, the problem I'm having is finding TDC of #1.

Jack
https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...ad.php?t=10870
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Old 04-07-2022, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackConnick View Post
Guys, the problem I'm having is finding TDC of #1.

Jack
Can you see the roll pins on the front of the motor? Or get in to remove the cover, so you can see the pins? If no to both, I can’t help. But if yes...

I find it next to impossible to detect the compression when rotating slowly by hand, and impossible to miss when cranking via the starter. Of course it’s impossible to land the starter right on tdc, but that’s ok.

Crank with the starter until it blasts yours thumb off the #1 cylinder plug threads.

The pin will likely be a bit past straight up. I’ll call straight up 12 o’clock, the pin is probably at 10 o-clock or so. From here you need to rotate the engine a little under two complete turns.

Start rotating the engine manually ( easier if all 4 plugs are off). Be sure you are turning it counter clockwise, when looking at the flywheel from in front of the motor. In other words same direction the starter was spinning it.

Watch the pins as you turn. First the bottom pin will pass “12 o’clock” , keep spinning. next the top pin will pass 12 - meaning you have gone one rotation of the crank. Keep spinning.

Next the bottom pin comes up again, so you have half turn left. Keep spinning, the next time a pin is pointing up, that’s tdc. Sounds more complicated than it is.

Another way to keep track is to stop the 4th time you have a pin straight up, after you cranked your thumb off.


Now that you have tdc, don’t remove the distributor. Just rotate it a bit so the rotor is pointing to the position of any of the plug towers. That is where your cylinder one wire goes. Then connect the rest - remembering that the rotor spins clockwise.

Last edited by SbMolly; 04-07-2022 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 04-07-2022, 04:24 PM
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SbMolly...You can't see the flywheel rollpin on a C-30, unless you cut a hole or otherwise installed a door there. I cut a 1.5" hole in mine so I could stuff the hand crank in there...
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Old 04-07-2022, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
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SbMolly...You can't see the flywheel rollpin on a C-30, unless you cut a hole or otherwise installed a door there. I cut a 1.5" hole in mine so I could stuff the hand crank in there...

In that case, break out the hole saw, (: would suck trying to find tdc blind.

I know these are sailboats, and the engine is an afterthought, but sometimes I’d like to meet some of these designers, and slap them around.
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Old 04-07-2022, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SbMolly View Post
I know these are sailboats, and the engine is an afterthought, but sometimes I’d like to meet some of these designers, and slap them around.
I think Shawn and other Catalina 30 owners will agree, we enjoy just about the best engine access of all. One small hole to view the flywheel roll pin and that's resolved too.

Quote:
. . . . . would suck trying to find tdc blind
The balloon method I've referenced in this thread and others is not precise enough to find an exact TDC but it will get the timing close enough to be able to start the engine. Slowly turn the engine until the balloon is at its maximum inflation and that should get you off the Schneid.
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