Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Troubleshooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26   IP: 70.54.31.229
Old 07-03-2021, 03:22 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
The fuel pump itself may need to be primed depending on your boat's fuel system is set up. The A4 fuel pump can have problems with dead lift.

ex TRUE GRIT

After eliminating a few other issues, I've moved on to priming the fuel pump. It just emits a dry squeaky sound after pumping it for many minutes. I'm convinced that the fuel is not being drawn through the system. When I disconnect the hose clamps throughout the system I just find dry fuel line starting at the tank all the way down to the fuel pump.

Any suggestions on why the fuel is not leaving the tank?
Reply With Quote
  #27   IP: 99.237.234.117
Old 07-03-2021, 06:14 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
After doing a few things mentioned in this form, I'm convinced that my next step is to figure out an issue with fuel delivery. The manual fuel pump makes a continuous squeaky noise that doesn't seem to be drawing fuel into the engine. When I remove the clamps and pull the fuel lines in various locations between the tank and the fuel pump, the lines are all dry. So I am certain that there is no fuel passing through the fuel lines.

I added 20 L of fuel last week.

Any suggestions on my next steps to troubleshoot this?

Please recall that I did run the fuel tank empty prior to adding the new fuel.
Reply With Quote
  #28   IP: 108.12.235.34
Old 07-03-2021, 06:39 PM
jcwright jcwright is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 158
Thanks: 5
Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts
Here is a thread that includes suggestions on priming mechanical fuel pumps and other related problems:

https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...ead.php?t=9607

Hopefully your persistence will pay off soon.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jcwright For This Useful Post:
wetbirks (07-03-2021)
  #29   IP: 47.142.131.74
Old 07-03-2021, 08:30 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 852 Times in 626 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetbirks View Post
Any suggestions on why the fuel is not leaving the tank?
The fuel system needs to be primed.
There is a blockage between the tank and the fuel pump such as a blocked filter.
The end of the outlet tube in the tank may be blocked.* Especially if there is some sort of a filter on the end of the outlet tube in the tank.

ex TRUE GRIT

*Edit: Did you try blowing into the tank and listening for bubbles?

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 07-03-2021 at 08:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30   IP: 104.174.83.118
Old 07-03-2021, 08:33 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,471
Thanks: 188
Thanked 1,997 Times in 1,323 Posts
Air leak in the fuel line/filter? It's hard to see because it doesn't leak fuel out but rather air into the fuel path.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #31   IP: 70.54.31.229
Old 07-04-2021, 03:57 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
The fuel system needs to be primed.
There is a blockage between the tank and the fuel pump such as a blocked filter.
The end of the outlet tube in the tank may be blocked.* Especially if there is some sort of a filter on the end of the outlet tube in the tank.

ex TRUE GRIT

*Edit: Did you try blowing into the tank and listening for bubbles?

I am fairly certain that the blockage is at the fuel pump. I disassembled all the hoses between the tank and the engine and blew everything out with compressed air.

I tried activating the primer with just the final hose next to the engine attached and there was no suction at all. This tells me that there's something going on in the fuel pump itself.

The engine did start briefly after putting everything back together. I'm assuming this is because some fuel was moved into the motor because of the compressed air. This gives me hope that I just need to figure out what is blocking at the fuel pump.
Reply With Quote
  #32   IP: 70.54.31.229
Old 07-04-2021, 04:01 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo View Post
Thanks for the pics and info. So it came alive with a shot of ether so we know it will start. You have a mechanical fuel pump. As suggested try priming the pump and again, ensure your choke is opening and closing fully. After that I'd think about the amount of gas in the tank..is there enough for the pickup tube to grab some.

Those mechanical pumps work for extremely long periods of time before any problems occur with them. However, occasionally they do develop a pinhole. I think, however, that because it fired up on ether there should have been lots of opportunity due to rpm to pick up gas and keep running.

That brings me to filters and carb. I'm wondering if there wasn't some sediment left in the tank that plugged the main jet on the carb. If you were able to just loosen the fuel line fitting coming from the fuel pump to the carb and turn it over you should see fuel leak around that fitting. If that is the case I would go to remove the carb and definitely clean it. Not a huge job, just be careful of your gaskets and clean the jets. If you are able blow some compressed air through everything by all means. When removing the jets ensure to use the correct size screwdriver and remember when assembling you don't need to tighten those jets back in with major torque, just snugged with wrist pressure...done. Clean up the needle valve as well. If it is your first time at a carb just take your time and I think you will do fine. I really think you will find your problem with the main jet...it is so hard to get a tank clean and then there is disbelief if dirt end up in the system.

Hope that helps.
Mo, your instruction seemed to be my next step based on what I've discovered so far.
Reply With Quote
  #33   IP: 199.119.232.221
Old 07-04-2021, 06:12 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
One final update for today. I ended up funneling fuel into the system from the hose just after the tank. I then started the boat in the motor ran for 20 seconds before cutting out. I assumed it just consumed all of the fuel in the lines.

I suspect I have a fuel pump issue.
Reply With Quote
  #34   IP: 174.31.118.47
Old 07-04-2021, 09:53 PM
wallis wallis is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 6
Thanks: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
mechanical fuel pump

After looking at all your pictures, it appears that your fuel line does not go to the mechanical fuel pump. In one of the pics your fuel line is going into a racor fuel filter/separator and then goes to an inline filter and disappears at the bottom of the pic. The fuel separator attached to the mechanical pump is missing its bowl, and does not have a line attached to the inlet barb. Another picture with a yellow mark around the mechanical pump primer shows a copper line coming up and going into the carburetor. You must have an electric pump somewhere in that line between the tank and carburetor.

Also, your choke wire is not hooked up to the choke.
Reply With Quote
  #35   IP: 99.237.234.117
Old 07-04-2021, 11:42 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallis View Post
After looking at all your pictures, it appears that your fuel line does not go to the mechanical fuel pump. In one of the pics your fuel line is going into a racor fuel filter/separator and then goes to an inline filter and disappears at the bottom of the pic. The fuel separator attached to the mechanical pump is missing its bowl, and does not have a line attached to the inlet barb. Another picture with a yellow mark around the mechanical pump primer shows a copper line coming up and going into the carburetor. You must have an electric pump somewhere in that line between the tank and carburetor.

Also, your choke wire is not hooked up to the choke.


The choke wire issue has been resolved. Thank you for noting that.

Thank you also for studying my photos. Is this the electric fuel pump?
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #36   IP: 99.237.234.117
Old 07-04-2021, 11:45 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetbirks View Post
The choke wire issue has been resolved. Thank you for noting that.

Thank you also for studying my photos. Is this the electric fuel pump?
Your observations would prove why my attempts to prime with the manual primer have been pointless.

I wonder if my electric fuel pump is not connected properly.
Reply With Quote
  #37   IP: 47.142.131.233
Old 07-05-2021, 01:17 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 852 Times in 626 Posts
An electrical fuel pump will have a wire running to it.
What are you located? Maybe there is a forum member that is near by and would be willing to come to the boat and have a look. I could figure this out pronto if I could see the whole picture.........
How did you adjust the choke?

ex TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 07-05-2021 at 01:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #38   IP: 199.119.233.178
Old 07-05-2021, 08:57 AM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
An electrical fuel pump will have a wire running to it.
What are you located? Maybe there is a forum member that is near by and would be willing to come to the boat and have a look. I could figure this out pronto if I could see the whole picture.........
How did you adjust the choke?

ex TRUE GRIT

The sliver device circled in yellow in the picture above has two wires running from it to the back of the engine.

For the choke, I just reattached the wire.

I am located in Toronto.
Reply With Quote
  #39   IP: 165.225.20.158
Old 07-05-2021, 09:05 AM
Surcouf's Avatar
Surcouf Surcouf is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 358
Thanks: 318
Thanked 159 Times in 120 Posts
not sure if anybody has asked you already, but do you have already installed a pressure gage on the fuel line just before the carburetor? This usually allows to rule out any fuel supply issue (that includes vacuum in the fuel tank, fautly Safety switches, dead pumps (mechanical or electrical), plugged filters and so on...).
__________________
Surcouf
A nostalgic PO - Previously "Almost There" - Catalina 27 (1979)

Last edited by Surcouf; 07-05-2021 at 11:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40   IP: 172.58.75.67
Old 07-05-2021, 10:08 AM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,095
Thanks: 24
Thanked 448 Times in 302 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetbirks View Post
The sliver device circled in yellow in the picture above has two wires running from it to the back of the engine.
Next time you're at the boat, please take CLOSER pics of...

• The Manual Fuel Pump
• The Racor Filter
• The silver device you circled.
(Looks like a filter to me)

Also, please trace where those wires from the silver device terminate.
Is there a hose (copper or rubber) going from the Manual Pump TO the Carb?

Finally, please trace the path FROM the fuel tank TO the carb.
You're trying to confirm that there is an un-interrupted path for the fuel to get from the tank all the way IN to the carb.
Please note (and list) anything you find in that path. (Racor, filter, pump, etc)

This will help us understand more what your fuel system consists of.
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #41   IP: 174.31.118.47
Old 07-05-2021, 12:29 PM
wallis wallis is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 6
Thanks: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
electric fuel pump

the silver object you circled could be an electric fuel pump, if so it may be a cheapy like this and need to be replaced. With electric fuel pumps, my understanding is that you should keep a spare.
Reply With Quote
  #42   IP: 104.174.83.118
Old 07-05-2021, 04:20 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,471
Thanks: 188
Thanked 1,997 Times in 1,323 Posts
In the picture I'm seeing an abandoned but still mounted mechanical fuel pump with the sediment bowl removed and hose detached. The item you circled looks like it might be a Delphi electric fuel pump (available from Home Depot) with a mounting thingy around its waist, hoses attached.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Delphi-E...0009/308011937

If that is correct, have you located the USCG required oil pressure safety switch that prevents the pump from operating unless the engine is running?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #43   IP: 70.54.31.229
Old 07-05-2021, 05:13 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
Next time you're at the boat, please take CLOSER pics of...

• The Manual Fuel Pump
• The Racor Filter
• The silver device you circled.
(Looks like a filter to me)

Also, please trace where those wires from the silver device terminate.
Is there a hose (copper or rubber) going from the Manual Pump TO the Carb?

Finally, please trace the path FROM the fuel tank TO the carb.
You're trying to confirm that there is an un-interrupted path for the fuel to get from the tank all the way IN to the carb.
Please note (and list) anything you find in that path. (Racor, filter, pump, etc)

This will help us understand more what your fuel system consists of.

Here is the path of the fuel line:
1. It comes out of the fuel tank and passes through a valve which is open
2. It goes in and out of the Racor. I took the hoses off in blue air through it successfully. I have not opened it up yet to observe the contents of the Racor.
3. Out of the Racor there is a line to the silver electric fuel pump/filter. The wires on this pump / filter are connected at the back of the engine.
4. Out of the pump/filter the line goes into the carburetor.
Attached Images
   
Reply With Quote
  #44   IP: 199.119.233.178
Old 07-05-2021, 05:18 PM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Continuation of previous post, more photos of the gas line path.
Attached Images
   
Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2021, 05:55 PM
JOHN COOKSON
This message has been deleted by JOHN COOKSON. Reason: SAde
  #45   IP: 172.58.75.67
Old 07-05-2021, 07:00 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,095
Thanks: 24
Thanked 448 Times in 302 Posts
Ok, I would venture to say we may have found your issue.
As Neil posted, that does indeed look like the Delphi pump he linked to.
I don't know what the rating of that pump is but you need a minimum of 2-3 psi to draw fuel from your tank, thru the Racor and to the carb.

I'm also concerned with the safety of your current setup.
For instance, where the copper tubing is simply jammed into the rubber fuel hose.
I'm surprised there isn't a fuel leak or at minimum, an AIR leak affecting carb performance.

IF this were my boat I would replace the fuel pump (wiring it correctly with an OPSS) and the fuel lines (replacing the copper tubing).
The very simplest way would be to call Ken at MMI. He would ask a few questions and insure you had all of the hoses, fittings, etc that you'd need.

I do, however understand that being in Canada, this may be too large of an expense.
Perhaps one of our Canadian crew could help suggest a pump and where you could get it easily?

Once we address the fuel pump, we should then make sure your choke is indeed closing and opening properly.
But the fuel delivery first...
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #46   IP: 47.142.131.233
Old 07-05-2021, 07:19 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 852 Times in 626 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetbirks View Post
After eliminating a few other issues, I've moved on to priming the fuel pump. It just emits a dry squeaky sound after pumping it for many minutes. I'm convinced that the fuel is not being drawn through the system. When I disconnect the hose clamps throughout the system I just find dry fuel line starting at the tank all the way down to the fuel pump.
Any suggestions on why the fuel is not leaving the tank?
Sounds as if your impression is correct. To isolate and confirm that the pump is working\not working put the inlet and outlet hoses in a auxiliary tank of fuel and turn the pump on (with the key) and see if you can pump fuel in a circle.*
If the pump is working reconnect the output hose to the engine and try to start.
* Don't leave the key in the on position for more than a minute or two when the engine isn't running and the points are closed or the coil will be fried. If desired, you can disconnect the wire at coil - to prevent over heating the coil when the key is on.

ex TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #47   IP: 162.219.70.239
Old 07-06-2021, 04:20 AM
Peter's Avatar
Peter Peter is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 296
Thanks: 159
Thanked 139 Times in 100 Posts
Facet fuel pumps can be found at aircraftspruce.ca - https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalo...cetgoldflo.php


Part number 05-10835

OPSS - quite a few on Amazon

Peter

PS - they also carry the facet “cube” pumps that are less expensive. These pumps were discussed here https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...ght=Facet+cube

Last edited by Peter; 07-06-2021 at 11:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #48   IP: 199.7.157.9
Old 07-06-2021, 11:05 AM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Sounds as if your impression is correct. To isolate and confirm that the pump is working\not working put the inlet and outlet hoses in a auxiliary tank of fuel and turn the pump on (with the key) and see if you can pump fuel in a circle.*
If the pump is working reconnect the output hose to the engine and try to start.
* Don't leave the key in the on position for more than a minute or two when the engine isn't running and the points are closed or the coil will be fried. If desired, you can disconnect the wire at coil - to prevent over heating the coil when the key is on.

ex TRUE GRIT
John, I completed this test. Nothing happened.

I did note that when I pulled the lines out of the auxiliary fuel tank, the intake hose seem to be full of gas, but the out hose was empty.

Time to locate a fuel pump. Having trouble determining what size/specs I need for the new one.
Attached Images
  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to wetbirks For This Useful Post:
Surcouf (07-06-2021)
  #49   IP: 199.7.157.9
Old 07-06-2021, 11:10 AM
wetbirks wetbirks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 44
Thanks: 14
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
It also occurred to me, how do I even know that I have power running to the fuel pump in the first place? I did put an electrical tester on the wires and there was no response.

I would like to test the fuel pump directly on the terminals of my battery, but I'm worried to do this because of a potential spark in the fact that this is a fuel pump.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by wetbirks; 07-06-2021 at 11:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #50   IP: 165.225.20.156
Old 07-06-2021, 11:55 AM
Surcouf's Avatar
Surcouf Surcouf is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 358
Thanks: 318
Thanked 159 Times in 120 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wetbirks View Post
I would like to test the fuel pump directly on the terminals of my battery, but I'm worried to do this because of a potential spark in the fact that this is a fuel pump.
for a simple test... flush it with water, make a short test pumping water through it; then flush it back with gas to avoid corrosion.
__________________
Surcouf
A nostalgic PO - Previously "Almost There" - Catalina 27 (1979)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Surcouf For This Useful Post:
wetbirks (07-06-2021)
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oil Leaking From Oil Pressure Valve ??? JGiffing Troubleshooting 13 08-20-2017 10:11 PM
How much voltage drop at Starter while cranking? JackConnick Ignition System 67 07-13-2014 01:03 PM
Engine Sputters and Coughs, and Needed Choke to Run Smooth CaptainChas Troubleshooting 9 06-30-2009 10:50 PM
Engine Dies after approx one hour Trysail Troubleshooting 4 08-07-2008 11:15 AM
Removing the engine from your boat Don Moyer General Interest 13 06-27-2008 11:06 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2022 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved