Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Fuel System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 07-13-2016, 09:26 AM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Black gunk in carb.

Thanks guys! Interesting comments. Well I have removed the valves and cleaned them. I will be reinstalling soon. Several of them were pretty crusty.

I have one of the red plastic portable fuel tanks. I don't see anything but clean gas inside. (new gas at that) I will be adding some MMO prior to starting and will pump enough into a spare tank to make sure I have the mixture to the carb.

Scavage tube is clear and I don't visually see any cracks in the manifold and no water coming out anywhere. Probably won't do a die penetrate test until after another run through.

I did order some carb parts from Moyer. The float valve needle seems to stick in the open position keeping the float from lifting and shutting off the flow. I attempted to clean, but it continues, so I decided to take the guess work out of it.

BTW, yes the plug wires are in the correct order. BajahahaJim makes sure of that!
Reply With Quote
  #27   IP: 107.72.164.88
Old 07-13-2016, 09:47 AM
The Garbone The Garbone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 299
Thanks: 15
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
My marina sell Ethanol free fuel, $3.65 a gallon. The WaWa gas station a block from the house has it for $2.80 last time I checked. This is Florida, can you get it in Cali?

If my motor sits for more than a month I bypass the cutoff and listen for the fuel pump to shut down, usually take 10 second. Put ever thing normal and Motor fires almost instantly. If I do not prime it it takes 15 seconds or so to kick over.
__________________
Gary
78' Catalina 30 #1179
www.svknotaclew.wordpress.com

Last edited by The Garbone; 07-13-2016 at 09:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 07-18-2016, 12:26 AM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Ethanol free - Gary

Hi Gary, not sure if we have ethanol free. I usually just take my 6 gallon red portable tank to buy gas at the local gas station. Can have up to 10% mixed in.
Reply With Quote
  #29   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 08-10-2016, 11:38 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Float Valve Needle - cockeyed

Seems the float valve needle was getting stuck as it came out too far and would not go back into the seat when the bowl filled with fuel. This, I believe, was the source of the excess fuel. It was cockeyed and on an angle. I adjusted the "tab" between the two hinge points where the pin holds the float to the carb housing. The "tab" now rests against the valve seat stopping the float from falling too low. This now keeps the float valve needle from coming out too far. Wish I would have taken a picture to show the issue. I have posted pics showing post adjustment. Kind of difficult to see.

Headed to the harbor in the next few days and will post the results.

Sorry, pics should be rotated right.

Name:  IMG_2896.JPG
Views: 1493
Size:  73.8 KB

Name:  IMG_2894.JPG
Views: 1507
Size:  76.4 KB

Last edited by sandiegomike; 08-11-2016 at 12:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #30   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 08-11-2016, 10:30 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Mike, be absolutely sure the floats sit parallel with the carb body when inverted to check the clearance setting~~very important.

There are really two adjustments on setting the floats.
First maintain the parallelism between the body and float.
Second is the clearance.

Tweaking one will alter the other. Sit down with a couple of needle noose pliers and be patient. The results will be a good running carb that supplies a good mixture that is very well mixed when entering the manifold for better performance and "clean running".

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
Administrator (08-11-2016), sastanley (08-11-2016)
  #31   IP: 166.137.8.123
Old 08-11-2016, 02:45 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Dave - thanks

Dave, I will keep that in mind, thank you. I have set the float to 1 5/32 from the housing (without gasket) to the top of the float. This is pretty much dead nuts parallel. Will let you know how it goes.
Reply With Quote
  #32   IP: 166.137.8.123
Old 08-11-2016, 02:49 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Question - float valve needle

By the way, how far should the float valve needle drop down when the float is at its lowest point to allow fuel in?
Reply With Quote
  #33   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 08-11-2016, 03:21 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandiegomike View Post
By the way, how far should the float valve needle drop down when the float is at its lowest point to allow fuel in?
It's more like metering. The float should drop enough to supply the engine with the correct amount of gas at a given RPM. This is why the float drop setting is critical to get right. Low fuel pressure can goof this up. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge between fuel pump and carb?

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #34   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 08-11-2016, 06:29 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Pressure gauge

Hi John, no pressure gauge yet. What pressure do you guys typically run at?
Reply With Quote
  #35   IP: 184.0.19.114
Old 08-12-2016, 03:46 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandiegomike View Post
What pressure do you guys typically run at?
Typical pressure is 2-3 PSI
Attached Images
 
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #36   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 08-14-2016, 09:21 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Unhappy Saga continues

Ok, Bajahaha Jim and I worked on the A4. Still will not start.
1) We now have compression on all cylinders.
2) we have spark
3) we are timed (static)
4) we have fuel into the cylinders
5) we no longer have excess fuel with the float adjustment

We are really not getting any firing at all....

Jim is thinking the carb is messed up and the fuel/air ratio is off?
Any thoughts?

Last edited by sandiegomike; 08-14-2016 at 09:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37   IP: 184.0.19.114
Old 08-14-2016, 09:39 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
What are the compression numbers?

How did you verify fuel delivery?
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Non-starting checklist.pdf (11.6 KB, 783 views)
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30

Last edited by roadnsky; 08-14-2016 at 09:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-14-2016, 09:55 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Mike (& Jim),
If conditions 1 through 4 are true the engine will run or at least pop & cough. That yours does not says something you think is good is not. The question then is what. Roadnsky Jerry has a few questions to that end as do I.

How did you static time? How did you determine TDC?
Reply With Quote
  #39   IP: 97.93.89.70
Old 08-14-2016, 10:26 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Mike, if you have compression, spark and fuel it should run unless the timing is way off and or the rotor is missing.

Do double check the TDC position and check the firing order again. It is easy to be 180 degrees off or even have the wires backwards on the cap.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #40   IP: 174.58.77.1
Old 08-14-2016, 11:00 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
if you still doubt fuel, then squirt some starting fluid in the carb.

It will at least make some noise and probably start if the other things are right
Reply With Quote
  #41   IP: 68.111.9.38
Old 08-15-2016, 01:15 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandiegomike View Post
Jim is thinking the carb is messed up and the fuel/air ratio is off?
Any thoughts?
A couple.
Verify once again that the choke is all the way closed all the way when you think it is. See if you can get the engine to pop when you use starting fluid.

TRUE RIT
Reply With Quote
  #42   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 08-15-2016, 04:12 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Answers & Comments

Static timing - Used a light meter to the negative coil and then to ground. Adjusted timing by rotating the distributor to on/off light. This showed the rotor about 90 degrees to the motor.

Checked fuel - 1st time by removing carb - fuel in there, so good. Dried plugs, cranked engine numerous times and plugs were wet. Also burned off gas from spark plug hole.

How does timing get 180 degrees out? Cap only goes on one way and we did not remove the distributor. Cap is in the same position as it has always has been for the last 10 years.

No firing using starting fluid. Should have mentioned that in the original post.

I did not write compression down, but it was betewwn 70-90 on all cylinders.

We have spark - cables are new and plugs are new. Cap and rotor are new and even bought a new coil.

Carb screw is seated and backed out 1.5 turns (It has also been backed out 1 turn and 2 turns.

Roadnsky, thanks for the check list. I will review and print and take with me tonight or tomorrow night.

Thanks all, I really appreciate all the help. Please comment if you can concerning timing being out 180 degrees. Is this possibly if we did not remove the distributor?

Last edited by sandiegomike; 08-15-2016 at 04:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 08-15-2016, 04:52 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandiegomike View Post
Static timing - Used a light meter to the negative coil and then to ground. Adjusted timing by rotating the distributor to on/off light. This showed the rotor about 90 degrees to the motor.
"90 degrees to the motor" when viewed from the flywheel end of the engine or 90 degrees to the motor when viewed from the transmission end of the engine?

TRUE GRIT

Edit: Turn the engine until #1 piston is at TDC compression. It is easier to turn the engine if you remove or loosen the spark plugs enough to break the compression. While #1 is parked at TDC compression remove the distributor cap and see if the rotor is pointing to the terminal that you have the spark plug wire to #1 cylinder inserted into.
Betcha you are 90 degrees or 180 degrees off.

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 08-15-2016 at 05:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44   IP: 174.58.77.1
Old 08-15-2016, 06:16 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
pistons 1 and four come to the top at the same time. Same for 2 and 3.

So I would try swapping plug wires for 1 and 4.
do the same for 2 and 3...

I can hear zoom now.

This is because you are timed 180 off. Take the wire for 1 and put it in the dist cap where the wire for 4 is now. Put number 4 wire where number 1 wire was. do the same for 2 and three.
Reply With Quote
  #45   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 08-15-2016, 07:00 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
"90 degrees to the motor" when viewed from the flywheel end of the engine or 90 degrees to the motor when viewed from the transmission end of the engine?

TRUE GRIT

Edit: Turn the engine until #1 piston is at TDC compression. It is easier to turn the engine if you remove or loosen the spark plugs enough to break the compression. While #1 is parked at TDC compression remove the distributor cap and see if the rotor is pointing to the terminal that you have the spark plug wire to #1 cylinder inserted into.
Betcha you are 90 degrees or 180 degrees off.
Both you guys are great - thanks. I knew when I posted that last one I should have been more clear. When I am at TDC and standing facing the flywheel looking toward the back the distributor is on the left and the rotor is pointing left. (90 degrees)
Reply With Quote
  #46   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 08-15-2016, 07:02 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
pistons 1 and four come to the top at the same time. Same for 2 and 3.

So I would try swapping plug wires for 1 and 4.
do the same for 2 and 3...

I can hear zoom now.

This is because you are timed 180 off. Take the wire for 1 and put it in the dist cap where the wire for 4 is now. Put number 4 wire where number 1 wire was. do the same for 2 and three.
We will try switching out plug wires tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #47   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 08-15-2016, 07:25 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Here's the "stock" way. When facing the engine from the flywheel end the wire to #1 cylinder S\B at the 9 o'clock position when it is at TDC compression. As mentioned you can determine this by observing where the rotor is pointing.

TRUE GRIT
Attached Images
File Type: pdf A4 WIRING.pdf (418.8 KB, 778 views)
Reply With Quote
  #48   IP: 184.0.19.114
Old 08-15-2016, 09:46 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
finding #1 TDC...
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Finding Top Dead Center.pdf (9.7 KB, 760 views)
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #49   IP: 72.220.176.93
Old 08-16-2016, 11:25 PM
sandiegomike sandiegomike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: San Diego
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Timing, spark and TDC

Sorry, pics are turned again.

I was able to get the A4 to run for about 2 seconds, (a hand full of times)so progress is shining upon Jim and I. Using starting fluid, but some times with fuel.

I had #1 at TDC. The one pic shows the yellow arrow and yellow dot lining up. I could also see the piston at the top of the cylinder. (it was pretty)

The distributor to the left in another picture from standing near the flywheel. 3rd pic shows the rotor pointing directly 90 degrees left.

I did get the big spark between the the coil wire and the head, so we are good there.

I tried switching the cables to see if I was 180 degrees out, but that made things worse.

I took the spark arrestor off and did get the suction as discussed in an earlier recommendation.

Choke does close all the way.

Not sure what to ask.....
Attached Images
   
Reply With Quote
  #50   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-17-2016, 04:23 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Mike, you might be timed right but your description and pictures are not conclusive.

The timing mark and piston at the top of its stroke happens twice in each cylinder in the 4 cycles of a 4 stroke engine. One is what you're after, top of the compression stroke. The other is the top of the exhaust stroke. Please note, the marks align for both and the piston is at the top for both.

I implore and beseech thee to revisit timing again just to be absolutely sure. It only takes a few minutes and will put the possibility to rest. The first and most critical step is to rotate the engine so the marks align on the compression stroke of the #1 cylinder closest to the flywheel. TDC is when the piston is at the top following the closure of the intake valve. One way to tell is to block the spark plug hole with your thumb as you turn the crankshaft by hand according to the arrow on the flywheel cover. When you feel pressure you're on the compression stroke, the next mark alignment is TDC. Hint: have all the spark plugs removed to make turning the engine by hand easier.

Only then can you scrutinize the position of the rotor to be certain it aligns with the distributor cap post corresponding to #1 plug wire. It does not matter where the rotor points relative to the centerline of the engine but rather that it points to #1 plug wire. Once that is established it's 1-2-4-3 going clockwise around the distributor cap.

By the way, your painted alignment mark looks a little off to me. The roll pin in the end of the crankshaft is perfectly vertical when the piston is at the top of its stroke.

Last edited by ndutton; 08-17-2016 at 04:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Administrator (08-17-2016), Hymodyne (08-17-2016)
Reply

Tags
carburator, exhaust, fuel, gas, hot section

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine runs for a couple minutes, stops hard, no fuel flow pdecker Troubleshooting 30 05-28-2015 01:17 PM
Fuel Shutdown Issue gdasw Fuel System 17 06-20-2013 08:53 AM
Possible bad Facet fuel pump? TomG Fuel System 8 05-17-2011 05:23 PM
Fuel-Related Engine Shutdowns Don Moyer Fuel System 32 02-18-2011 04:36 PM
Facet fuel pump notes rigspelt Fuel System 3 01-03-2009 01:31 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved