Need help asap

[joe_db]

My boat suffered from exactly this issue. Not enough current made it through about 8 feet of 16 gauge wire, a starter button exposed to salt water, and back through another 8 feet of thin wire to reliably pull the solenoid all the way in. It would just click and not start.

I solvled it with another relay - a solenoid-solendoid if you will.
The starter button activates the relay and the relay activates the solenoid. This has worked perfectly ever since

How you find out if this is the issue: Get a short piece of wire and jump between the battery wire on the back of the solenoid and the connection for the wire that goes to the starter button.
WARNING: This will make a spark or two. This is the ultimate in non-ignition protected. Make sure no gas fumes are present before trying this trick.

[sailingchance]

Still stuck - but situation improved

Thanks everyone for all the responses. I have tried just about everything and still no go. I am now of the opinion the starter coil has blown.

I tried jumping with a screwdriver. I rechecked all the wiring. (I typically use slightly oversized wire and it is all brand new. All connections were clean, tight and correct. Fuses were all intact. I tried starting and jumping and whacking things again when the battery was at a sustained charge of 13.5 for more than 4 hours.

At first I thought it was the bendix that may have gotten stuck. So I removed the started, bench tested it on another battery that had a resting charge of 12.71A (my windlass battery) and still no change. But I CAN mechanically move the gear and spring freely and easily. I also confirmed that the engine isn;t seized - although I havent tried hand cranking it yet.

MY "Self-diagnosis" is that while the engine was running the starter somehow blew or surged or the bendix got stuck and didn't retract. That alone would have cause a large surge in power that would drain faster than my little alternator could put out. My wife did hear or "pop" or bang" before I turned off the engine.

After a few hours of fighting the bottom and the anchors in 35mph winds, I was able to get a fellow boater to tow me into better protection and have taken the starter in to get check by a local mechanic in Spanish Wells.

I cant think of anything else that could have caused this. It was literally 60 seconds between starts. and this had never happened before.

[joe_db]

Usually if the starter stays engaged with the engine running it becomes a generator and you suffer from HIGH voltage

I would loan you a spare if you were here, but not as easy in Spanish Wells. If you get over to Harbour Island say hi to Ruby for me!

Question: new or old model starter?

[sailingchance]

Ha! Thanks. It is an old model starter. Now I am really confused. Hopefully the mechnic has something to say. Because if he doesn't I am at a TOTAL loss.

Usually if the starter stays engaged with the engine running it becomes a generator and you suffer from HIGH voltage

I would loan you a spare if you were here, but not as easy in Spanish Wells. If you get over to Harbour Island say hi to Ruby for me!

Question: new or old model starter?

[edwardc]

Jason,

As I recall, you had an incident last July where a stuck solenoid kept your engine cranking for 3 minutes until you removed the battery cable. I know you said you had the starter rebuilt, but is this the same starter you have now? If it is, I would strongly suspect that one or more of the starter's coils, or the brushes & contacts, were damaged in that incident, and have finally failed now.

Be sure to mention this event to the mechanic you bring it to.

[hanleyclifford]

Been there, done that

Jason - I have been in exactly the situation you were in last night - on the hook, dragging in high wind, no engine... it's not an experience you want to do a second time. I don't think I need elaborate on the value of carrying a spare complete starter that is known to be functional. You may find that the problem is just as silly as dirty, worn brushes/commutator. We are all relieved that you and your boat are well. Regards, Hanley

[joe_db]

You are (sort of) in luck!
The old starter solenoid is literally an electically activated switch. It does not engage the starter. You can replace it with another one if it is the issue and you can do an easy test. Take a HEAVY wire - like a jumper cable - and connect from the starter side of the solenoid straight to the battery side of the solenoid*. If this works, then starter = good. If not, then the starter itself has issues.



The current goes from one large bolt to the other. The small bolt on top is from the starter button. This activates the solenoid and connects the two large bolts together.


* don't jump straight to the battery. On the off chance the jumper you are using welds itself on you want to be able to turn off the battery switch.

EDIT: I am amazed at an internet connection to Spanish Wells. When were were down there back in the day a PHONE call was iffy, let alone anything involving data or other 20th century concepts.

Ha! Thanks. It is an old model starter. Now I am really confused. Hopefully the mechnic has something to say. Because if he doesn't I am at a TOTAL loss.

[lat 64]

Jason,

Good to know you made it to a better place.
Also glad to hear you could remove the starter to work on.

If your mechanic has to order parts from the states, remember a whole "new" one from Moyer's is $310 and that includes the $100 core charge. Just sayin'

This is kinda like Apollo 13.

So…This got me thinking'
Here's my photoshop efforts for the day. An Evinrude recoil salvaged from a Big Twin 40-hp. scabbed on to the flywheel of an Atomic-4

I found your facebook page. Cheers,
Russ

[sailingchance]

Woah... I'm not really sure what that is, lolol. Is that to work as a manual crank of some sort? Please elaborate. One thing I am not short of in the bahamas is outboard parts.

Thansk!! Jason

Jason,

Good to know you made it to a better place.
Also glad to hear you could remove the starter to work on.

If your mechanic has to order parts from the states, remember a whole "new" one from Moyer's is $310 and that includes the $100 core charge. Just sayin'

This is kinda like Apollo 13.

So…This got me thinking'
Here's my photoshop efforts for the day. An Evinrude recoil salvaged from a Big Twin 40-hp. scabbed on to the flywheel of an Atomic-4

I found your facebook page. Cheers,
Russ

[sailingchance]

Thanks!

So far, it seems to be the starter itself. We can get it to move with a high amount of current but that's it. taking it to a specialist on mainland Eluthera today via ferry. Hopefully it is just the brushes or contacts and not the coil (fingers crossed).

If anyone has a spare used old model starter they are willing to sell. I can paypal and include shipping instructions to a friend in the states for forwarding on to me. I have a spare for just about everything else, I thought that when I had the Starter checked out and rebuild before we left, It would give me at least a year of good service. They dont often go bad. Oh well. Live and learn.

Thank you EVERYONE for you quick responses, concern and help. It is this community that made me feel safe and comfortable with my a4 purchase to begin with. Hope one day I can provide the same assistance.

Cheers, Jason

[romantic comedy]

Jason, he was joking.

I had tried a pull cord on my engine. It actually worked. I use the PTO on the fly wheel to run my alternator. I spaced a round plate against the pulley and used a rope. not that you can do that, since you cant get access to the flywheel.

Any news about the starter?

[romantic comedy]

Jason, have you talked to MMI. I know in the past Don has bent over backwards to help guys in trouble.

they may even know about shipping to the Bahamas.

[lat 64]

Jason, he was joking.

I had tried a pull cord on my engine. It actually worked. I use the PTO on the fly wheel to run my alternator. I spaced a round plate against the pulley and used a rope. not that you can do that, since you cant get access to the flywheel.

Any news about the starter?

Nope. I am serious. I don't think it's relevant to jason's situation though. Sorry for the confusion Jason. I just was wondering what it would take to make a dependable hand starter for an a-4 when I thought of repurposing a recoil from another engine.

Back to your problem though. I, Like RC, think it may be smart money to get a Moyer starter sent out ASAP and turn in your core later. The shipping would be the same most likely, and the PIA factor could be much less. Then you can pend some quality time on the beach to realign cruising priorities.

Edit:
I just read your plea on the other thread. That explains the issue with wanting a used starter. Hope you can find one.

Russ

[romantic comedy]

Sorry Russ. I think it is very possible to have a rope start for the Atomic Four.

I matched the small pulley I have on the PTO. I took it off for some reason. I will look for a picture. But it wont help Jason right now.

[lat 64]

RC,
All good. I actually was very inspired by your comment that you had established proof-of-concept with a plate of some kind and a rope.
I have even imagined a version of this with a recoil on engines with poor or no access to the flywheel end as in Jason's v-drive case.

Just like a snowmobile starter is rigged, you could lead the rope up through the deck to the cockpit or dinning table top. A rope recoil is much safer than a crank and if it was lead all the way to the helm, one could safely sail the boat while dealing with a dead battery or stalling engine. "one" could also have a heart attack if it went on for long. I'm good for about five pulls and then it's miller time.
Thanks also for giving Jason the Moyer part number on the other thread.

Russ