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Old 08-31-2013, 05:59 PM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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need expert advice with A4 install/drive shaft coupling and alignment issues

Greetings Afourinans,
Needing some expert wisdom and advice from some of you who may have encountered this problem--or were smart enough not to! First off, let me confess to being a real newbie and probably in way over my head at this point.

My co-owner Tom and I have purchased a good running A4 late model from a post on this forum. We've removed the old dead A4 (early model) from our 1972 vintage Catalina 27 and wrestled our "new" A4 into place (hereafter just called new motor)--and here is where we're facing problems. I'm posting a couple pictures to show the issue. Note that the pictures show the engine on a big slant--which it still is-being slid into place on a couple wood blocks. It will line up much better--but it will be longer than previous motor.

Basically, we are sliding the new motor into place and need to move it back another inch to mate up with the mounting bolts--and we're jammed up to the shaft coupler already. Our assumption had been that the new A4 would match up exactly where our previous engine had been--and that's not a good assumption. We need to move the engine back about an inch to mount it and we're already jammed right to the coupler on the propeller shaft.

I realize that when we are talking about the coupler and propeller shaft that we're entering into the domain of the Catalina 27--but i can see from the knowledgable posts here that many of you know this subject inside and out--and we're definitely needing expert advice. So here are my questions (and where I'll also display my ignorance):

1. Is there any length adjustment available in the coupling setup?
2. Can we make a small length adjustment by pulling the prop out in the water a small amount? If so, does this create additional problems (like maybe sinking our boat?
3. If we cannot adjust the shaft out, can we mount the engine without using the existing mounting bolts? Currently, the mounting holes in the A4 oil pan are not over anything but air and we'd have to construct a support for mounting.
4. What service do we need to perform for the coupling and stuffing box? We'll definitely need some PB blaster and a wire brush to get access to anything there.
5. Can we do what needs to be done ourselves, or do we need some expert help with this? And if so, who is our best source for information on addressing this--without a haulout or other too-expensive options for us?

Any and all comments and suggestions are appreciated--even if it's to point out something we shoulda and coulda thought of or done but didn't! we'll follow this forum but would also welcome any private advice or suggestions or possibly a local in our Oceanside, CA harbor area (really, anywhere in SD or Orange County). Feel free to call Dan at 760-208-4717 or danmanakers@gmail.com.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:33 PM
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Dan, sumthin' not right. There is no variation in engine length or mounting holes in A-4's. Can you provide a picture of the mounts in their current position? Any pictures available of the old engine and its mounts for comparison?

My next comment takes into account you admit to being a newbie and is not intended to beat you up or insult but the coupler, shaft and stuffing box are a fright. Please say there are plans to replace these components in the very near future.

Finally in the third picture it appears the clamps have been loosened and/or relocated or perhaps double clamping has been removed. Any failure of those connections left unattended will surely sink the boat. Please be sure those clamps are secure and the double clamps are replaced.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:52 PM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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thanks Neil. Can the coupling and stuffing box be replaced with our boat in the water? Do we have any room to adjust the coupling aft during this process? I'll try to get a picture of the mounting setup previous and current.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:59 PM
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Was your old engine directly lag-bolted to the stringers, or did it use engine mounts like this:

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Old 08-31-2013, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanManSanDiego View Post
thanks Neil. Can the coupling and stuffing box be replaced with our boat in the water? Do we have any room to adjust the coupling aft during this process? I'll try to get a picture of the mounting setup previous and current.
Replacement of coupler and stuffing box (and the hose that connects it) as well as the shaft is not something I'd consider doing in the water. Expediency will dictate cutting the shaft as I'm certain the coupler will be uncooperative. I did not mean to ignore your question of moving the existing shaft/coupler aft to gain room, sorry. I suggest for the current project it should not be necessary although the pictures imply otherwise. I also think with the condition of the shaft, moving it aft will result in a leak at the stuffing box seal. For that seal to perform well the shaft must be smooth.

If the old engine fit the replacement will too without changing anything. Really, they're identical. As I was thinking and Ed has mentioned, the new mount system is suspect.
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Had my hands in a few others
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:55 PM
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Talking

Looks like you need to shove that shaft aft and you do have about an inch. Could be stubborn. Loosen the locking nut behind the packing nut and see if you can loosen it up enough. You may have to apply liberal amounts of light oil and WD 40.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:51 PM
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Dan,
The stuffing box and coupling are really ugly. Without cleaning them up, you really don't know what you have. Shaft might be fine, and moving it aft an inch shouldn't be a biggie. Did the same with my shaft when I installed an isolator coupling and didn't have any problems. Gave me room for a zinc between the hull and the propeller.
Not really sure why you're having this space problem. For a while I thought you were replacing a different engine with an A4. All A4 engines that I've seen have the same footprint.
Oh yeah, make your pictures smaller.
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:19 AM
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It is possible to change a coupling and stuffing box in the water. You need to be careful not to push the shaft out the bottom. If that happens, you have a big hole that needs to be plugged. Then you need to be hauled.

You have so little clearance, and are a newbie. I advise against it. If you really want to try it, be near the travel lift, with the operator on notice.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:37 PM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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Thanks, all for the helpful advice so far. Let me try to summarize a few answers--and give a bit more information. Re the engine mounting and Ed's question, the engine has mounted directly into the support structure (stringers?) with no added hardware. How would that hardware function anyway? Also, we have only the two mounting bolts on the flywheel side of the engine. The other two on the drive end were previously sheared off and the previous early model A4 was only mounted with the two bolts--and attached securely to coupler and drive. I will attempt to get some pictures and measurements. Oh, and sorry about the oversize pictures--that's just how they came from the phone--will do some post processing next go round.

Re. the coupler and stuffing box. Clearly we have to get that cleaned up, assess the condition and do whatever needs to be done. I'll confess to not even knowing what a stuffing box was before this occasion. I believe we need to be careful with using PB blaster or equivalent in the area. After reading some of the advice and how-to's here, it's clearly not something to overlook or take lightly. We did have to reposition the hose and clamps to deal with a fairly significant inflow of water after removing the old engine. Obviously we need to address this with caution and perhaps the direct oversight of a seasoned hand at this. Messing with this will certainly bring on some water that we need to be prepared for and ready to deal with. What would be the best solution to cleaning and freeing up our bolts at the stuffing box area?

One suggestion made is that perhaps we have inadvertently moved the shaft and coupling location forward in our removal process. Perhaps we can dive overboard and gently pull and rotate prop and pull out a bit to provide clearance? Again, want to ensure that we don't do anything to precipitate a major flood.
I am believing that the shaft is normally bathed in water from the propeller forward to the stuffing box, and that some water leakage (measured in drips not gushes) is normal and even desirable--is that right?

Again, thanks for the wise advice.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:03 PM
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I say that's correct - you can push the shaft aft a bit and not sink the ship. Is the prop going to hit something if you push it aft? Not likely in a Cat 27. Not like you were in an aperture.
You scare me telling me the old (and new?) engine are only held by two bolts. I've been in off shore knockdowns where engine covers have come loose, batterys have come loose, but never a whole engine. Please (!!!) fix the hold down situation. You'll need a couple of new hanger studs - and probably some epoxy to bed them (engine beds OK or punky?).
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
The other two on the drive end were previously sheared off and the previous early model A4 was only mounted with the two bolts--and attached securely to coupler and drive.
I'd like to know under what circumstances you had an early model engine in a Catalina 27. My information is early model A-4 production ceased in 1969, Catalina 27 production began in 1971, yours is a year newer.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanManSanDiego View Post
...I am believing that the shaft is normally bathed in water from the propeller forward to the stuffing box, and that some water leakage (measured in drips not gushes) is normal and even desirable--is that right?
Correct.
You may want to read these "how to" links regarding a traditional stuffing box and cutlass bearing...


http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/motor_mounts
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:17 AM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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Great stuff, thanks. Hopefully, we won't need to replace the cutlass bearing until a future haulout, but we'll certainly need to service the stuffing box, and likely install two new engine mounts--if we actually have a structure there to install into that will line up with the A4 oil pan mounts.
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:22 AM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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Neil, we did not know it was an early model until we saw the late model we had purchased. Previous motor did not have thermostat bulge in head and was definitely not the late model. My co-owner and I only have the last several years history. No idea what happened in the intervening years of our boats checkered past. A previous owner clearly replaced an engine. That unknown owner also cut out sections in the side of the engine compartment so you can actually reach in from the side to access things. That Catalina 27 engine compartment is not too spacious to say the least.
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:27 AM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
I say that's correct - you can push the shaft aft a bit and not sink the ship. Is the prop going to hit something if you push it aft? Not likely in a Cat 27. Not like you were in an aperture.
You scare me telling me the old (and new?) engine are only held by two bolts. I've been in off shore knockdowns where engine covers have come loose, batterys have come loose, but never a whole engine. Please (!!!) fix the hold down situation. You'll need a couple of new hanger studs - and probably some epoxy to bed them (engine beds OK or punky?).
Al, we're going to look at replacing those engine mounts if we have something to mount to where our mounting holes have to be. Previous engine was mounted very securely, but I get worried too thinking about really heavy seas if we don't have everything very secure--though mainly sailing off the coast and maybe to Catalina is the height of our ambitions with our little boat. Gonna watch the weather real close!
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:34 AM
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Dan, I did do an R7R of my entire log and shaft while it the water. It really was not that big of a deal!! I do have a bit of room to work in a not to crowded space.
First I got all of the parts on hand and at the ready. Then I loosened everything that need to be loose and then re-tightened slightly to avoid to much leakage. Once ready I slid my shaft aft far enough that I could slide the coupling off and secured it in place with a hose clamp on both sides of the strut. Once I slid the old one off I stuffed a couple of rags into the gap and zip tied them in place so I could be sure I got hose clamping area cleaned of for a good seal. Then I just slid on the new hose and then the log. During the process I got less than a gallon of water in the bilge.

I did this on a friends boat too by pulling the shaft and inserting a short plug into the log. This kept the water out and then we just pulled it and had the new one at the ready. Once installed we just slid the shaft back in an that knocked out the plug. Didn't even set off the bilge pump!!

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Old 09-02-2013, 08:57 PM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Dan, sumthin' not right. There is no variation in engine length or mounting holes in A-4's. Can you provide a picture of the mounts in their current position? Any pictures available of the old engine and its mounts for comparison?

My next comment takes into account you admit to being a newbie and is not intended to beat you up or insult but the coupler, shaft and stuffing box are a fright. Please say there are plans to replace these components in the very near future.

Finally in the third picture it appears the clamps have been loosened and/or relocated or perhaps double clamping has been removed. Any failure of those connections left unattended will surely sink the boat. Please be sure those clamps are secure and the double clamps are replaced.
Neil, all:
thanks for the sage advice. This mystery is closer to being solved but I don't think there's a happy ending in sight. Ours is definitely a cautionary tale--and it's certainly been a major and expensive learning experience.

Ok, so here's what we now know. Our old Atomic 4 was apparently bastardized to fit a 1971 Catalina 27 that was originally equipped with an outboard only. The oil pan had extra holes drilled to accomodate the shorter mounting dimension of the existing stringers/mounting surface installed on the Catalina (but for what purpose or what engine I don't know). As noted before, the aft mounting bolts are sheared off.

My co-owner Tom and I were at the boat today with a knowledgeable marine mechanic with a can-do attitude. He basically said no can do--certainly not in the water and maybe not even on the hard. His emphatic point was that the key to a healthy drive train is getting the engine and coupling exactly matched up--which requires the ability to adjust the engine in multiple dimensions across four mounting points. We currently have only two mounting points--and they've been bastardized to make an A4 fit.

We also obviously have to fix and or replace the coupling and stuffing box and should definitely verify integrity of shaft at same time--not something we could do without hauling. Then, assuming we get that in pristine condition, we'd have to marry it up exactly to a new engine going in the boat that was not originally designed to go in this boat. We'd definitely have to extend the stringers and install mounting hardware to accomodate mounting the A4 and we'd either have to reuse the old modified oil pan or completely modify our mounting arrangement. And we'd be doing all this not knowing if it would all work in the end--and in the meantime the clock is running and cash register is going KaCHING!

So, we're facing some tough decisions. The first decision is easy. That nice late model A4 that we wrestled in using our boom for hoist--we've got to take it out again. It's certainly not going into the boat in the current condition of things. We'll get it out and set it up in Tom's garage and fire it up--and maybe sell it to recoup at least some of our expense. It's the next decisions that are tougher--and frankly have to be made on a cold financial cost/benefit analysis. Any advice is again appreciated. At this point we're seriously considering selling or otherwise disposing of the boat as is with full disclosure to a future owner of repairs that must be made. Have also considered just going to an outboard (as this Cat 27 was originally intended). However, that same previous owner apparently glassed over the transom cutout in the back. We'd have to customize some new cutout or something to accommodate an outboard and/or install remote controls. Again--KaChing!

I'm posting some additional pictures (hopefully smaller this time) for review-another pic of the interior space with the coupling and stuffing box nightmare, the stringer on one side with the mounting bolt and same pic with a measuring tape--and the modified oil pan with the additional holes.

Again, thank you all for the time and wisdom. And don't worry about hurting any feelings here. My hindsight is good and getting better, but hard news is best delivered straight.
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:36 PM
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Sorry to hear the story but it raises another few questions in my mind:

1. Can you post some detailed pictures of the transom repair? Inside and out? If it was done by the same entity that installed the engine there HAS to be some evidence.

2. Have you considered mounting an outboard on a retractable bracket? The typical size for C-27's was 9.9 HP long shaft.

and the biggie,
3. Did you get a survey when you bought the boat?
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:50 PM
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I wouldn't be so quick to give up just yet...

If you're willing to haul out and re-do the shaft; why not go the distance
and re-bed the engine room with stringers for the engine mounts too?
Now, I know it's easy for me sitting in the comfort of my cockpit drinking a cold one to spend your money...
but with some investment you could have a very nice aux setup on a solid sailing vessel.
I can see where Neil is headed with the outboard, which is also a solid possibility.
Don't discount that either (although I personally would prefer the inboard A4)

My point here is, don't be discouraged and give up too soon.

How is the rest of the vessel? Is she sound with some good sails?
Any other major work needed?
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:56 AM
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You are not the only one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanManSanDiego View Post
Neil, all:
thanks for the sage advice. This mystery is closer to being solved but I don't think there's a happy ending in sight. Ours is definitely a cautionary tale--and it's certainly been a major and expensive learning experience.

Ok, so here's what we now know. Our old Atomic 4 was apparently bastardized to fit a 1971 Catalina 27 that was originally equipped with an outboard only. The oil pan had extra holes drilled to accomodate the shorter mounting dimension of the existing stringers/mounting surface installed on the Catalina (but for what purpose or what engine I don't know). As noted before, the aft mounting bolts are sheared off.

My co-owner Tom and I were at the boat today with a knowledgeable marine mechanic with a can-do attitude. He basically said no can do--certainly not in the water and maybe not even on the hard. His emphatic point was that the key to a healthy drive train is getting the engine and coupling exactly matched up--which requires the ability to adjust the engine in multiple dimensions across four mounting points. We currently have only two mounting points--and they've been bastardized to make an A4 fit.

We also obviously have to fix and or replace the coupling and stuffing box and should definitely verify integrity of shaft at same time--not something we could do without hauling. Then, assuming we get that in pristine condition, we'd have to marry it up exactly to a new engine going in the boat that was not originally designed to go in this boat. We'd definitely have to extend the stringers and install mounting hardware to accomodate mounting the A4 and we'd either have to reuse the old modified oil pan or completely modify our mounting arrangement. And we'd be doing all this not knowing if it would all work in the end--and in the meantime the clock is running and cash register is going KaCHING!

So, we're facing some tough decisions. The first decision is easy. That nice late model A4 that we wrestled in using our boom for hoist--we've got to take it out again. It's certainly not going into the boat in the current condition of things. We'll get it out and set it up in Tom's garage and fire it up--and maybe sell it to recoup at least some of our expense. It's the next decisions that are tougher--and frankly have to be made on a cold financial cost/benefit analysis. Any advice is again appreciated. At this point we're seriously considering selling or otherwise disposing of the boat as is with full disclosure to a future owner of repairs that must be made. Have also considered just going to an outboard (as this Cat 27 was originally intended). However, that same previous owner apparently glassed over the transom cutout in the back. We'd have to customize some new cutout or something to accommodate an outboard and/or install remote controls. Again--KaChing!

I'm posting some additional pictures (hopefully smaller this time) for review-another pic of the interior space with the coupling and stuffing box nightmare, the stringer on one side with the mounting bolt and same pic with a measuring tape--and the modified oil pan with the additional holes.

Again, thank you all for the time and wisdom. And don't worry about hurting any feelings here. My hindsight is good and getting better, but hard news is best delivered straight.

One of my friends at the yacht club also has had to make a hard decision this week. Yanmar diesel in a Cat 27, rebuilt 2 yrs ago to the tune of about 3k and it gave up the ghost again a week or so ago as he and his wife were returning home from there summer excursion.

He's an aircraft mechanic and no stranger to hard work or engines but he'd had enough. Spent about a week trying to figure out what was going on with it and decided to remove and put on a 9.9 to keep the boat usable while he worked on engine. Talked to him about that engine over a beer today at the club and here's what he did.
-put on transome engine mount
-put on 9.9 long shaft with hand controls...he mounted those hand controls just behind the binnacle on his dingy engine bracket...it looks fine. This was borrowed from a friend of ours that bought a Capri 25. The 9.9 came with the Capri and Greg felt it was too large and put his smaller one on. So Jim ended up with a good engine and controls second hand. He just may buy it from Greg.
-removed the diesel.

He did all this over the weekend and can shift etc while still at the helm. Says the 9.9 will push the boat at 5.5 with hardly any throttle...something his diesel had trouble doing. Sunday afternoon was raining and windy here and he says the 9.9 did a better job pushing the boat than his small diesel did. He pulled the diesel engine and brought it home and said if he can fix it himself, find parts etc without too much expense he will consider putting it back in...but he is indeed very happy with the outboard 9.9 and just might keep it on there.
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Old 09-03-2013, 03:05 AM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Sorry to hear the story but it raises another few questions in my mind:

1. Can you post some detailed pictures of the transom repair? Inside and out? If it was done by the same entity that installed the engine there HAS to be some evidence.

2. Have you considered mounting an outboard on a retractable bracket? The typical size for C-27's was 9.9 HP long shaft.

and the biggie,
3. Did you get a survey when you bought the boat?
The aft locker has a plywood backplate about where the transom would have been, and we do have a retractable bracket where we've mounted a small electric trolling motor for emergency backup. Don't know if it would be strong enough without reinforcement for the weight of a 9.9 four stroke. If we opened a transom area and reglassed, we could replace and or reinforce then.

We did get a survey and while other concerns were addressed no mention nor pictures of the drive coupling, stuffing box and such. However, that survey was December, 2008. Afraid we're past any recourse there. the boat was assessed overall as "fair" and seaworthy.
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Old 09-03-2013, 03:14 AM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
I wouldn't be so quick to give up just yet...

If you're willing to haul out and re-do the shaft; why not go the distance
and re-bed the engine room with stringers for the engine mounts too?
Now, I know it's easy for me sitting in the comfort of my cockpit drinking a cold one to spend your money...
but with some investment you could have a very nice aux setup on a solid sailing vessel.
I can see where Neil is headed with the outboard, which is also a solid possibility.
Don't discount that either (although I personally would prefer the inboard A4)

My point here is, don't be discouraged and give up too soon.

How is the rest of the vessel? Is she sound with some good sails?
Any other major work needed?
Thanks for the encouragement--we'll assess costs for our options and make a decision after we get the engine back out. Our boat is no nautical showpiece and our sails are adequate but not great. We need and were planning some fixes including new top paint and varnish, and looking at putting on a rear pulpit and a roller furling for the jib. Bottom paint is still good, but may not be if we're in dry dock any period of time.
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  #23   IP: 107.223.118.38
Old 09-03-2013, 03:18 AM
DanManSanDiego DanManSanDiego is offline
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One of my friends at the yacht club also has had to make a hard decision this week. Yanmar diesel in a Cat 27, rebuilt 2 yrs ago to the tune of about 3k and it gave up the ghost again a week or so ago as he and his wife were returning home from there summer excursion.

He's an aircraft mechanic and no stranger to hard work or engines but he'd had enough. Spent about a week trying to figure out what was going on with it and decided to remove and put on a 9.9 to keep the boat usable while he worked on engine. Talked to him about that engine over a beer today at the club and here's what he did.
-put on transome engine mount
-put on 9.9 long shaft with hand controls...he mounted those hand controls just behind the binnacle on his dingy engine bracket...it looks fine. This was borrowed from a friend of ours that bought a Capri 25. The 9.9 came with the Capri and Greg felt it was too large and put his smaller one on. So Jim ended up with a good engine and controls second hand. He just may buy it from Greg.
-removed the diesel.

He did all this over the weekend and can shift etc while still at the helm. Says the 9.9 will push the boat at 5.5 with hardly any throttle...something his diesel had trouble doing. Sunday afternoon was raining and windy here and he says the 9.9 did a better job pushing the boat than his small diesel did. He pulled the diesel engine and brought it home and said if he can fix it himself, find parts etc without too much expense he will consider putting it back in...but he is indeed very happy with the outboard 9.9 and just might keep it on there.
Mo, that's an option we'll look at, however I think we'd have to cut out a transom area in order to have any access to the engine. Not sure how that would all work for starting, steering, etc.
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  #24   IP: 24.224.152.244
Old 09-03-2013, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by DanManSanDiego View Post
Mo, that's an option we'll look at, however I think we'd have to cut out a transom area in order to have any access to the engine. Not sure how that would all work for starting, steering, etc.
I'll snap a pic of Jims boat for you today and show you what he did. One thing is for sure...you leave the engine fixed in one straight forward position and don't use it to steer...the rudder steers the boat. I've had an outboard on my first sailboat and it was just a tad tricky backing up with the fixed position...once you are used to it there is nothing to it. You just need throttle and gear shifting close by for the engine....and steer the boat.
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Last edited by Mo; 09-03-2013 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:32 PM
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Thanks, all for the helpful advice so far. Let me try to summarize a few answers--and give a bit more information. Re the engine mounting and Ed's question, the engine has mounted directly into the support structure (stringers?) with no added hardware. How would that hardware function anyway? ...
Sorry for the late response. I was away on a camping trip over the long weekend, and Internet access was poor.

The motor mounts shown require stringers that are aprox. 2" lower than direct mounting. Each mount is secured to the stringer with two bolts. One of the mount's holes is slotted to allow for horizontal movement during alignment.

The engine is mounted onto the large threaded stud on each mount. Lower and upper nuts allow for vertical adjustment, and an extra nut on top locks things down. Thr mounts also have a vibration-damping inner core.

If you're going to rework the stringers, I would strongly suggest allowing for the extra space needed for the adjustable mounts. It will make alignment vastly easier in the end.
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