Fuel Issues and Varnish

[gs11gk]

I have a 1974 Pearson 30 that has served me faithfully for 9 years now. Much to the dismay of Captain and crew, I have had two failed outings in the past week that I believe are fuel related. I've been investigating the problem this week- and here is what I know.

Two months ago, I had trouble starting the boat and found that the carburetor was really varnished up. I probably inspect the carb every year or two and had never noticed any varnish in the carb until that time. I cleaned it all out with carb cleaner such that it looked perfect.... minus the rebuild kit. I also inspected the Racor filter and found it was really black in there. I didn't have a replacement element with me so I just rinsed it in clean gas and put it back on. Upon reassembly, it started right up and everything has ran fine until last week.

Last week, I may (or may not) have simply run out of gas at an inopportune time. It wouldn't be the first such occasion. Threw an anchor, spent the night and put 5 gallons of fresh gas into the tank in the morning. It fired right up. Pain in the a-- but no harm.

This week, I am motoring around for July 4 fireworks and the engine fails just as we are anchoring. Luckily a friend was available to tow us back to the slip before we drifted into the boat anchored behind us.

So, I get into it yesterday. First thing I do is stick a dipstick into the tank to see how many inches of fuel are in there. I'm wondering if I ran out of gas the first time or it was something else. Its obviously got gas (right about 5 gallons) but the thing I notice is that it feels like there is a half inch of crud on the bottom of the tank... tactile feel is like sand. I replaced the filter element and tried to turn the engine over. It won't go- but there is gas in the carb. I get ambitious because I've never felt all this grit in the tank before. I drain the tank through the fuel system (excluding the Racor) and the gas comes out reasonably clean but with some black sediment- the same stuff that's being collected in the Racor. I filter this gas back into the tank to remove the particles and notice that fuel is spilling over the tank. Not good. The hose connecting the fuel deck fitting has decayed so much that it leaks. The inside of that hose is.... black.

I cut that hose off and remove the fuel deck fitting in the hopes that I can replace that hose and get a better angle to siphon the crud out of my tank. No real success with the siphoning but it worked momentarily and I did get some black chunks out. I'm going to try again this week with a few more gallons in the tank.

For kicks, I decided to take the carb off and have a look. Its varnished again! Its not as bad as it was two months ago but I was surprised to see how much varnish was on it after just two months. I ordered the rebuild kit today... but I verified that the carb was getting gas... before I started taking everything apart.

I have been reading all the horror stories on E10 fuel and its affect. I've been using 'gas station' gas for years without problems. I'm wondering what this black sediment is in my tank. I believe the tank is Monel and the fuel pick-up line is brass. My guess is that its related to that short, leaking hose between the fuel tank and deck fitting. Is that possible? Does that black stuff matter or is that what the fuel filter is for (stop worrying)? I really don't want to remove the tank if I can avoid it. I also ordered the electric fuel pump kit with the inline filter today.

I'm also wondering why my carb fouled again so quickly. It wasn't black varnish but more of an orange or maroon color.

Any suggestions or words of encouragement? Thanks for either.

David

[romantic comedy]

In my experience, I have seen "varnish" of an orange or brown color. This was from old gas that was in the carb. It has a distinctive nasty smell. I have not seen black from gas going bad in the carb.

I am sure that someone else will have experience with black stuff.

The first thing you want to do is to use an auxiliary tank until you have a clean gas tank and new filters. Clean out the carb, and make sure the jets are clear.

[Mo]

Could very well have been ethanol gas cutting old deposits within the tank and now they are settling in the bottom. If you can feel that down there there is really only one solution. The tank has to be cleaned. If it can be removed that's the way to go and save yourself allot of trouble in the long run.

That is going to be an ongoing issue until such a time as the tank is cleaned out. The filters cannot and will not stop everything. Change all rubber hoses as well if they are not new within the past few years.

Good luck with it.

[sastanley]

I had the black stuff...the inside of my fuel tank filler hose was flaking off little black chunks like yours so I replaced it. You Pearson guys are lucky that your filler is directly over the tank.. Mine is 6' long and makes a "S" curve as the filler is over near the gunwhale & the tank is in the center under the forward end of the cockpit.

Are you putting stablizer in your gas? I am wondering if because you are regularly leaving only a few gallons of gas in your tank, it leaves a lot of room for condensation, then water in the tank, then phase separation of the E10 if you are not using a stabilizer.

I tend to run with only a few gallons in my tank too, but I ALWAYS use a stabilizer and add it into the jerry can before I pump the fuel.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

[joe_db]

My fill hose was slowly dissolving and dropping pieces of rubber in the tank. Eventually it started leaking

IMHO I would remove the tank, clean it, and replace EVERY hose.

[Bold Rascal]

Hi Dave. Lot's of great advice already given. Having been thru all these fuel related issues myself (including a leaking fuel pick-up tube). I'd heed the good advice:
Your Pearson's only 38 years old.....Mine's 39!

Remove the fuel tank, drain and clean it. Yes a pain but will be worth it.
Remove your pick-up and inspect it for any (even tiny) pin holes or leaks. (Mine had them)
Check any flared metal fuel line conections for cracks, dismantle and visually inspect (Mine had them).
Replace all old rubber Fuel lines with Ethanol rated hose.
Install your new pump, clean/new filters, Clean rebuilt carb
and ENJOY...

Ps. Your fuel tank is most likely Monel

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by gs11gk

I cut that hose off and remove the fuel deck fitting in the hopes that I can replace that hose and get a better angle to siphon the crud out of my tank. No real success with the siphoning but it worked momentarily and I did get some black chunks out. I'm going to try again this week with a few more gallons in the tank.
David

I read in the forum where someone attached a piece of tubing to a stick with the end sticking out a bit over the end of the stick, hooked the other end to a pump, and used the stick to guide the tube to the lower corner of the tank.

Just an idea.........

TRUE GRIT

[gs11gk]

Thanks everyone.

I think I am going to bite the bullet and pull the tank. My logic is that it is the only way to definitively fix the problem and inspect the brass tubing inside the tank- plus I think I'm half way there having already removed the fill hose and associated deck fitting. It sounds like once I remove the fittings from the top and straps I should be able to get it out of the starboard locker.

Any suggestions from the Pearson 30 community as to how to best get this beast out of the boat?

Am I best off draining all the gas and then adding water to the tank to dilute the remaining gas? I don't know what I would do with 20 gallons of contaminated water- and I don't relish the idea of lugging it up from the boat!

[sastanley]

I think I'd empty the tank as much as possible before moving the tank.

There are "fuel polishing" services that must have some way to pull the fuel since they circulate it thru filters to clean it..might be able to one-way pump it into jerry cans..then I'd take that to your local hazardous waste collection site.

[prstack7]

I have a ´77 P30, and I cleaned my tank in place last summer, 2X! In order to remove the tank you have to remove so many other things that it wasn´t worth it. The first time I pumped all the gas out by attaching a stick to my pump hose and feeding it to the forward corner. I got the last few drops out with a rag attached to a stick. I then cleaned with white vinegar, about 5 gallons. I air dried and blew some air into the tank. After I still had some fuel issues, I cleaned a second time with Acetone--just a gallon (it turned out I didn´t need to do this because the real problem was in the carb). The tank got mostly clean with only a very small amount of stuck-on deposits left. I haven´t had any trouble this year.

[edwardc]

Originally Posted by gs11gk

...Am I best off draining all the gas and then adding water to the tank to dilute the remaining gas? I don't know what I would do with 20 gallons of contaminated water- and I don't relish the idea of lugging it up from the boat!

Water won't dilute the gas, it'll just go to the bottom and the gas will float on top.

As for draining the tank, your electric fuel pump can do the job nicely. Just put the output hose into a jug, bypass the OPSS, disconnect the coil, and turn on the ignition. Do not use a jumper to apply power, as it will spark, and you are going to have gas fumes about. Keep the blower on at all times while draining.

[Loki9]

Originally Posted by gs11gk

Thanks everyone.

I think I am going to bite the bullet and pull the tank. My logic is that it is the only way to definitively fix the problem and inspect the brass tubing inside the tank- plus I think I'm half way there having already removed the fill hose and associated deck fitting. It sounds like once I remove the fittings from the top and straps I should be able to get it out of the starboard locker.

Any suggestions from the Pearson 30 community as to how to best get this beast out of the boat?

Am I best off draining all the gas and then adding water to the tank to dilute the remaining gas? I don't know what I would do with 20 gallons of contaminated water- and I don't relish the idea of lugging it up from the boat!

I pulled the tank on my '76 P30 last summer. I took it to a radiator shop and they boiled it out and pressure tested it. I had the A4 out of the boat, so removing the tank wasn't too hard to do. It might be possible to pull it from the starboard locker, I'm not sure. You will need to at least partly disassemble the wooden cradle that the tank sits in.

The pick up tube inside the tank is copper. It was easy to fabricate a new one from tube I bought at Home Depot and sweat it onto the tank fitting.

Good luck!

[positron]

I have a P30 and I am pretty sure the only way to get the gas tank out is through a passage created by removing the engine. If anyone has figured out a better way I would love to hear about it!

The fuel uptake line in my tank was cut short about 4" from the bottom to minimize sediment getting sucked up. It seems to work but leaves a smaller effective gas tank. I used an outboard motor gas squeeze bulb and some hose to drain the tank. On land it was a snap- I fed the line through one of the cockpit drains to a waiting gas can on the ground. Once I got it primed siphoning took over.

Replace all rubber tube with new EtOH rated, and add a polishing filter (from MM) to catch any crumbs before they get into the fuel pump.

[timkb]

I have a '74 Pearson 30. I believe that removing the tank with the engine in place is not possible. Last year I suffered phase separation of the fuel. The symptoms were poor running followed by refusal to start. Initially I thought it was due to an ignition problem as there was plenty of fuel in the tank. During the troubleshooting process I pulled a sample of the fuel through the fuel filter and into a plastic bottle the fuel separated into two layers. The clearer layer on the bottom. Ethanol fuels will separate if there is enough water present. I believe the problem was caused by a few weeks of very hot weather followed by a rainy week. The fuel cap did not have an o-ring installed. The cockpit may have collected water which allowed it to leak into the tank. A few days of spirited sailing followed which I think did a good job of mixing the fuel water and cleaned old varnish from the inside of the tank. I drained and put in fresh fuel. Problem gone.
You may be able to drain the tank and then use a pressure washer to clean the inside. The tank is monel. I would use a drill powered utility pump on the fuel line.

[gs11gk]

I know it can be removed through the starboard cockpit locker but I'm not sure how. Someone mentioned doing it. I looked at it again tonight and as mentioned previously- the wooden frame- which is glassed in would seem to be the main obstacle. The straps on the tank didn't come loose like I had hoped either... the screw mechanism to loosen/tighten the metal bands turns but doesn't seem to loosen. Worse comes to worse I can unscrew the strap from the frame.

Other than that, it doesn't look too difficult to free up.

In addition to cleaning the tank and getting the black junk out, I'd like to inspect the brass pipe going down into the tank. It looks like that could be done by loosening the tank from the frame (assuming that's possible) and rotating it to the port side so there is room to come out of the tank.

I'm still not 100% sold on this project but I do like the idea of taking the plunge, doing the preventative maintenance and starting fresh. I think my gas turned due to the absence of an O-Ring on the deck fitting. What's a good place to get an O-Ring?

[Loki9]

I'd first try cleaning the tank in place.

If that doesn't work, consider pulling the engine into the cabin. It's not that difficult and can be done by one person with the boat in the water. It maybe the only way to get the tank out (pretty easy after the A4 is moved) and it will give you the opportunity to clean an examine places that you otherwise couldn't. If you decide to go this route, let me know and I'll give you the steps I took to do it.

[timkb]

If you PM me your address - I think I have a few extra o-rings. I'll send you at least one.

[gs11gk]

Thanks timkb. PM delivered and much appreciated.

[Bold Rascal]

Removal of the 20gal tank from the P33 was accomplished with the engine inplace and did require a couple hours effort. I am not at all sure what your arrangement is however, I also had to unscrew the holding straps on the starboard side of the cradle and slide the tank out the starboard cockpit locker. Having an extra pair of hands was helpful while lifting it out.

I was not able to completely remove the tank without first removing the pickup tube, Aaargh.... Loosen tank, Tilt, remove pickup, remove tank.

Best to drain/pump out and collect as much fuel from the tank as you can before removing it.

A gallon of acetone, thoroughly sloshed and rinsed, a thorough sloshing of 3 gallons white vinegar followed by a high pressure rinse worked really well for me. I left mine to air dry upside down for a few days before re-installing it.

Here's a picture of my pickup tube. Nice huh?

I eventually (after pulling the tank a second time) found a pin hole airleak in the tube just above the place where the black stuff ends. Of course this was after I thought I had everything else in the fuel system corrected. It's either brass or bronze under all that ???

The tank was half full of gas for about 6 years or so according to the PO.

Take your time, do it once, do it right. The best part of the sailing season is still to come.

Be careful about those gas fumes and Good Luck!
Mike

[sastanley]

+1 on the squeezy bulb for emptying the tank. It is not the quickest, but there are zero electrics involved.

When my aluminum tank developed a leak in the corner (of course full when stored for winter & one week before spring launch) I had my faithful companion squeezing the bulb to get the remaining fuel into a couple of jerry cans while I was sitting on the galley floor, drawers removed to gain access, and literally had my 'finger in the dike'. Oh, and it was pouring down rain & after dark...

This was even before we'd ever sailed the boat. I am sure she thought, 'what have I gotten myself into with this one?'

[Loki9]

Originally Posted by Bold Rascal

I eventually (after pulling the tank a second time) found a pin hole airleak in the tube just above the place where the black stuff ends. Of course this was after I thought I had everything else in the fuel system corrected. It's either brass or bronze under all that ???

I'm pretty sure it's copper. The one in my P30 was copper, just like the rest of the fuel line from tank to filter.

[Bold Rascal]

Since I happen to have the remnant's of my old pick-up tube right here I gave it a good scrutinizing and discoverred it has some words stamped into the side of it which read:
"Revere Red Brass" According to one web site:

Art bronze casting in the past, and currently in many Italian foundries, used Red Brass, a copper alloy having the nominal chemistry of 85 % copper, 5% tin, 5% lead and 5% zinc. Red Brass has a universally recognized Copper Development Association (CDA) number of CDA836. Contemporary art foundries normally use either Everdur Silicon Bronze or Herculoy Silicon Bronze. Everdur is usually called 95-4-1 (CDA873), symbolizing its nominal chemistry of 95% copper, 4% silicon and 1% manganese. Herculoy is usually called 92-3-3 (CDA876), symbolizing its nominal chemistry of 92% copper, 4% silicon and 4% zinc. The selection is simply a foundry choice.

In the wrought form, silicon bronze has a CDA number of CDA655 and its nominal chemistry is 97% copper and 3% silicon. In plate form, it is called Herculoy (an original trademarked name by Revere Copper and Brass). It is sometimes confusing to artists in that the Herculoy plate is actually closer in chemistry to Everdur ingot than to Herculoy ingot.

Whew....Your right Jeff, It's a copper alloy.

[Loki9]

Phew!!

[Antibes]

I just removed my tank and decided to use carb cleaner since it does such a nice job at removing varnish from the carb. Then rinsing with gasoline multiple times, manually agitating the tank. When replacing the fill hose try to avoid having a low spot where debris can accumulate between fillings

[gs11gk]

Felt I should give an update on progress so far. I decided to do my best to clean the tank and gas in situ. I opted for a drill pump to increase the amount of suction and speed the process. That worked so much better than a hand bulb and allowed me to do the entire process outside the boat- well ventilated. With about 3-4 gallons of gas I pumped it out and strained it probably 25 times. I started with the West Marine funnel that separates water and filters simultaneously. By the end I was using a coffee filter. For anyone doing this, you definitely want to rock the boat as hard as you can to get it sloshing in the tank. I learned this lesson about 10 pumps into the process and I got much more of the big 'stuff.' I may do it again after the next vigorous sail.

In the end, I collected about 225cc of mostly black and a little brown. Pieces ranged from 5mm to dust- and everything in between. I'm pretty sure that it was the fuel inlet hose which was disintegrated and leaking. Using the dipstick, it sure feels like I got the majority of it. No mush at the bottom of the tank. I know its not as clean as having taken it out... but it sure was easier. The filter should get anything that's left (knock on wood).

So, we have a new filter and I just did the carb rebuild using the Moyer kit. Reassembly should happen on Saturday, along with an oil change and cooling system flush. Then I'll spend a few hours motoring to see how she runs.

Thanks for the help everyone.