Valve Lifters NOT Moving

[Ball Racing]

Originally Posted by ILikeRust

I think you probably could remove the camshaft without taking off the the oil pan, although you would have to turn the engine upside down, because if you pulled the camshaft out with the engine right-side-up, all the lifters would fall down into the oil pan. Then you would have to take the oil pan off to retrieve them and put them back in, and in order to take the oil pan off, you have to remove the flywheel and flywheel housing.

If you pulled the cam in the boat,right side up,
you would have to remove the head, so you could remove the valves and springs to make room to remove the lifters from the top side, or at least raise them up.
Because the base circle of the cam lobe is smaller than the cam bearing. So when you slide the cam, the lifter would hit the diameter of the cam bearing.

[ILikeRust]

You can't remove the lifters from the top side - there is not enough clearance in that side access area. The only way the lifters can come out of the block or go in is from underneath.

But I suppose you could, as you suggest, tie a bit of wire or something to them to keep them from falling back in. But it would be a tricky thing to get that camshaft back in there unless you have every one of the lifters held all the way up as high as they will go. Which essentially is what you're doing when you flip the engine over and slide the cam in with the block upside-down. All the lifters fall to the top end of their travel when you do that.

[keithems]

yes -- i'm considering trying that

if so, i'll put duct tape or something on the lifters to keep them from sliding down.

however, my concern then is that i'm not dealing with what caused the cam to break -- lack of oil circulation? -- etc. -- and will likely have to do a real overhaul when the season ends...

also, assuming the cam is broken, i'm not sure i'll be able to get the broken part out of there without removing the oil pan and turning the block upside down....

i went and looked at the camshaft and the block from the previous a4 this boat had; i was amazed that the cams seem to be made from plastic! if so, it's easy to understand how they wore down, and it's also likely that i don't have a broken camshaft, just one with 7 of its 8 cams worn off.

stay tuned....

[joe_db]

If you're willing to come get it, you can have my rusty old block to scavenge for spare parts.

[Laker]

I cringe at the thought of you taking a drill to your transom. Bite the bullet - put all that energy and work of hanging an outboard into pulling your A4.

Make your boat whole again , don't make more holes.

[ILikeRust]

Originally Posted by keithems

i went and looked at the camshaft and the block from the previous a4 this boat had; i was amazed that the cams seem to be made from plastic!

I would interested to know what you were looking at, because I assure you that my cams are not plastic. And I never have seen a camshaft with plastic cams.

[DanR550i]

Originally Posted by keithems

yes -- i'm considering trying that

if so, i'll put duct tape or something on the lifters to keep them from sliding down.

however, my concern then is that i'm not dealing with what caused the cam to break -- lack of oil circulation? -- etc. -- and will likely have to do a real overhaul when the season ends...

also, assuming the cam is broken, i'm not sure i'll be able to get the broken part out of there without removing the oil pan and turning the block upside down....

i went and looked at the camshaft and the block from the previous a4 this boat had; i was amazed that the cams seem to be made from plastic! if so, it's easy to understand how they wore down, and it's also likely that i don't have a broken camshaft, just one with 7 of its 8 cams worn off.

stay tuned....

Could you fashion a series of magnets to hold the lifters in place?

DanR

[ILikeRust]

If you're really intent on trying to do the job without hauling the engine out and turning it over, I would just take some light wire and twist it around the adjusting bolts, then up and over the top of the head, to hold the lifters up.

But actually, I would just go ahead and yank the engine so you can really get in there and see what's going on.

[joe_db]

Doing this in place would be about 500 times harder than removing the engine. My record time of engine installed to sitting in cockpit is 45 minutes.

I think this calls for an intervention. We'll all drive over there and take the thing out

[hanleyclifford]

You should know that although it is possible to R&R a cam in the boat, how are you going to replace the cam bearings? The new cam bearings will have to be installed and reamed to fit the new cam. While it is possible to fashion a tool to extract and install cam bearings in the boat, I don't see how you can ream them for a proper fit. You cannot rely on the dimensions of the new cam and pre-reamed bearings to give the proper clearance. By the time you go thru the exercise of fashioning and using the tool, it will have been simpler to just pull the engine and let a machine shop fit the new cam and bearings.

[Bold Rascal]

Just wanted to share that I have an auxilary OB on my 33' Pearson, 10,000+lbs displacement. It's an old 9.8 hp 2 stroke longshaft with remote throttle and shift. Pushes her along just fine but if you get into any chop and she starts to hobby horse, forget about it! Even wakes from passing larger traffic are to be avoided.

I just did a valve job, head replacement on my A4. Pulling her out of the engine compartment into the main cabin where all the work was performed was much easier and quicker than I thought it would be..

[keithems]

an intervention would be great!! -- lemme know when, and i'll arrange lodging, etc, [poss. on my and others' boats, etc. -- who wouldn't want to visit beautiful buffalo [and nearby canada] in the summer?

meanwhile, just bought a 9.9 extra long shaft with remote, etc., on ebay -- won't be here for a bit, and believe me i'd just as soon not have to use it -- but if i do, it will just be for light weather, to get in and out of the marina. i did have a merc mariner 3 on my c&c 25 for 4 years -- and i survived that.

now....if i can do the cam in the boat, that will be great! i do have the benefit of my old block here to look at. i'm not at all sure the cams are plastic -- they just looked that way. i'll have a better idea cuz i'm planning to remove that cam and bearings asap and take to the machine job to see if i can use them.

also, fyi -- if you look at the mmi online catalogue, it says the following re. the bearings they sell:

http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?keywords

[may have to insert "cam" to get to this listing]



(OVAL_09_171) Brass cam bearings - pre-machined (set of 3)
Brass cam bearings - pre-machined (set of 3)

These bearings are pre-machined and are intended to be used without the need for expensive line boring after installation, as required by factory OEM bearings.

In some few cases, we have found that the ID's of the cam bearing journals in the block are not manufactured to standard dimensions. Therefore, to insure that proper clearances are maintained after installation of these bearings, please measure the ID of the cam bearing journals in the block prior to ordering. The bearing journals should be between 1.499" and 1.502". If the camshaft does not spin freely after installation, the bearings can be honed slightly to provide proper minimum clearance of .0015".

Brass cam bearings - pre-machined (set of 3)
Price: $95.00
Weight: 0.20
Quantity:
Options:
Price with your options:




what do you think?

[lat 64]

Installing cam bearings is a bit of a dark art. They have to be pounded in but not forced. Yeah, I know, that doesn't make sense. The deal is they need a bit of force to go in to their bores, but they can get distorted easily. Then they need to be dressed up to proper clearance.
I have never installed brass cam bearings So my advice stops before there. I'll bet they are tougher than the babbit-on-shell style though.

It could be that your originals are fine. if they lived a good life so far, they may not be worn out. When you go to pull out the old cam it should sort of lock and slide, lock and slide, like something that has..well, close clearance. that's one indication they're still fine. good oil pressure is another indicator of good cam bearings. Finally the true be known, is, you have to know the truth. That is, Get a mechanic to measure them with a micrometer.
A side valve motor doesn't put much wear on cam bearings, so explore the idea that you might be OK there.
Of course if the cam is in pieces in there, it probably a mess.

Hope it goes well,
Russ

[keithems]

and where will i find a mechanic to come down to the boat with her micrometer

and it will be a mess in there, eh? i can hardly wait! all the more reason i should probably wait until fall, pull the motor, take it somewhere warm and cozy, disassemble it completely, and do the job right....

stay tuned.....

[hanleyclifford]

In post #21 you indicated that your oil pressure was 40-50 psi for a long time but then began creeping up to 60 psi. Cam bearings are all oiled thru a drilled channel in the block. It is possible the channel got blocked or it is even possible a cam bearing "spun" in the casting thus getting the oil hole out of line, drying the bearing, seizing the camshaft resulting in the breakage. This is of course only a working theory. I am now leaning to the temporary outboard fix and then do the job right in the fall.

[keithems]

thank you

your theory sounds very possible --

the real point is -- i bought this motor for $800 complete -- lots of spares included, etc. -- it had run in salt water [no FWC] for 30 yrs -- so i know it could not have been in the best of shape from the gitgo....i now know the ticking noise it always made was not normal -- likely the #4 intake valve was always way too tight -- and i had lots of blowby -- and when i cleaned out the cooling jacket a few weeks ago -- there was a lot of junk!

thus, there's more to this than replacing the cam -- definitely needs rings, maybe oil pump, clean screen, etc., etc.

installing the o/b should only involve drilling 4 holes & installing a bracket -- which i've done before [c&c 30 has good access thru the transom] -- plus, as mentioned previously -- i'd want an o/b backup if i ever went anywhere distant anyways

if the o/b fix really doesn't work at all, i can always epoxy the holes and move on to removing / replacing the a4

meanwhile, while awaiting the ob's arrival, i'm game for trying to r&r the cam without r&r-ing the motor. having done it once, i know r&r-ing an a4 is no picnic, especially aligning the motor-prop shaft coupling. i have reread the mmi manual many times now, so hopefully i can leave that part intact even if i do r&r the motor itself.

btw -- if it comes to that [or when] -- the c&c engine mounts i have are all steel -- meaning lots of noise and vibration -- has anyone with a c&c been able to replace them with the rubber based mounts or anything quiter/ smoother?

course i'm still open to an intervention

[hanleyclifford]

It is easy to R&R cam bearings on an A4 if you make the right tool. You will need a 2' piece of 1/4" fine threaded rod, a few scraps of hard wood (I used mahogony), hole saws 1 9/16" and 1 11/16", and some fender washers and a couple of nuts. Work on a good drill press. You will still need to deliver the block and cam to the machine shop for fitting. Make sure all oil holes are lined up right. Good machine shops are impressed if you deliver your job this way.

[lat 64]

Very nice Hanley!

Yes, I forgot to mention that alaigning the oil hole concern. It seems they always get a little off. Just another thing to stay vigilant.

keithems seems to be hinting that he is not objecting providing beer and chips for an intervention. Wish I could be there. There is NO better thing than messing with someone else's boat>

Russ

[lat 64]

I wanted to add:
I don't see any apocalypse from making a few holes in the transom and fitting a planned jury-rig for an outboard. It's not if, but when the main engine will quit; and then you have some option before calling for the embarrassing tow home. It's part of seamanship to always be thinking of alternatives. Metaphorically Giving yourself Some searoom off the lee shore of breakdown.

Outboards can be miserable to operate off a high transom, But forward motion is forward motion in a busy shipping lane.
All that said, the old Islander 29 that sits next to my boat has not had it's a-4 running for years. The owner, a good sailor, just sails in and out of the slip. This is a skill I don't have yet.

R

[ILikeRust]

Originally Posted by lat 64

There is NO better thing than messing with someone else's boat

You need to get out more. I think that Alaska weather is finally getting to you.

[keithems]

i did sail off a mooring for years with no motor and have sailed in many times and many places without one -- but i'm getting too old for that [also used to land engine out [single engine], but i'm too old for that also]

click on this -- then click on aerial view, then make sure the star is in the center of the screen, then resize if necessary:

http://classic.mapquest.com/maps?nam...ESS&id=1792788

i'm the 3rd dock from the right, my slip is nine out from the parking lot; prevailing wind is left to right, straight out from the parking lot

maybe i'll get one of the docks at the end in the future....

meanwhile, we have an almost unlimited supply of beer, booze, and chicken wings at hand for anyone interested....

[ILikeRust]

My college roommate for two years was from Buffalo and was always going on about sailing. He raced on Lake Erie on some J boats or something. I knew absolutely nothing about sailing back then (I know marginally more than absolutely nothing now).

His dad owned and operated Sanders & Sons Roofing, if you know that company. Supposedly they've been a big-time commercial roofer up there for decades. I think his grandfather started it. He went to work for the company after college.

Dunno why I spewed all that out; just suddenly remembered that and thinking out loud. I lost touch with him a loooong time ago, but I'm assuming he's still sailing up there.

[hanleyclifford]

Still thinking about how this could be done in the boat. If you can construct the tool as described above and buy a set of "pre-reamed" bearings from Moyer Marine you could do the job in the boat yourself. The big problem would be knowing the final installed clearance which should not exceed .0025". As a first step you could use calipers or other accurate measuring device to get the exact dimensions of the bearing journals on your spare camshaft.