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Old 02-19-2017, 03:02 PM
merchantmariner merchantmariner is offline
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New Coil, etc, still no luck.

I'll continue here with what I started in the "Intros" sub forum:

So about 4 days ago, I went to change the oil in my 1966 A4. She has about 40 hours since I acquired her and knowing the oil change time to be 50, I figured it would be a good exercise (and who knows when it might have been changed before I bought her). I started the motor to warm up the oil and it puttered out rather quickly. I didn't think much of it given the age of the engine and that this had happened every once in a while before. Usually I just re start and there are no further problems. This time however, in a blinding flash of mechanical inspiration, I decided to go ahead and clean the carb (original Zenith) just in case that aided the issue..... This story could go on for pages so I am going to summarize what I have done until now where the real mystery starts.

-1 I removed and cleaned the carb and reintstalled with a new gasket. I did not make note of the position of the idle jet screw prior to removal so it is installed fairly wide open now, to be adjusted once I get her running. (More on that later)

-2 I installed new sparkplugs. The old ones were really not all that dirty but sparkplugs are cheap and at this point I was having fun.

-3 I opened and cleaned the old brass fuel filter and replaced the fuel line from the tank to it. When re assembling I filled with with fuel and a dash of Seafoam.

At this point I decided to start it up again. Filled with hope and excitement in anticipation of hearing the mighty purr of my now cleaner engine I pressed the start button and... NADA. Starter motor turned over plenty, but she didnt catch.

4- So I cleaned the spark wire ends and rotor in the distributor. I should note that my lack of mechanical knowledge prior to all this was so vast I didnt really know what a "distributor" was...
Still no luck though. A friend with a voltmeter determined that the 12 v across the coil was intermittent and I discovered the negative lead wire was nearly fallen out. New end, replaced, problem solved. 12v loud and clear.

So what now?

I had spark. I had compression. I assumed I had fuel.
That's where I was wrong. Apparently I had closed the idle jet completely during assembly of the carb (I didnt even know what it was). So I opened 'er up and now I had fuel.

I try again. She starts, turns for a few seconds, and dies. This scenario repeats itself a few times.

-5 I find that the ignition points are not spaced right and are dirty and stuck. If I seperate them by hand, they will spark for a bit, then stick again. Hence, the short run time. I head off to NAPA where I'm told there is a boat guru and he showed me how to file and reset the point. (Great guys over at NAPA on Little Creek Rd. Norfolk)

-6 I head back to my trusty vessel filled with new found confidence. As I cram myself into the floor of the cockpit and hunch over the "engine room" (Im 6' 5") I decided that adjusting the points would be a whole lot easier if I just removed the whole distributor.

7- I removed the whole distributor and as soon as I saw the gear coming out, I knew I had made a mistake. This is an excellent example of how little I understood engines... I didnt realize that doing this would mess up the timing. Oh well, now I get to learn how to do that too! Hooray..... I cleaned and set the points (do you know how hard it is to find a matchbook these days???).

-8 I re installed the distributor with the engine at TDC. I never progressed with the timing from there because I found I STILL was getting no spark at the points. Turns out, somehow, I had crossed a wire and fried my coil. So I bought a new coil (this oil change is getting expensive).

9- Here is where the mystery starts folks. I have a brand new 12v coil (internal resistance) installed. It is an exact copy of the old coil and installed exactly the same way. No wires have been changed and all connections are secure and clean(ish). But there is nothing. No 12v across the coil. No spark from any end, neither from the cental wire out of the coil nor at the breaker points.

Has anyone else ever experienced this? Any leads, hints, checklists? This all happened over four days. I have searched the forum and google but perhaps I missed something.

Anyone in Norfolk that wants to tutor in exchange for... soda? (Bargaining is tough when you aren't old enough to buy alcohol)

Any help you all can offer will be greatly appreciated. I was going to sail to Yorktown tomorrow but it looks like that will have to wait!

Cheers,
Cody
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Old 02-19-2017, 06:32 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Cody, do you have a fuse in the ign circuit?

As you did lot of things we need to get them sorted out one at a time.

What is called the idle screw adjusts the air not the fuel in the idle circuit. By closing it you are at max rich way to much. Start at 1 1/4 turns open and leave for now.

Check for fuel in the carb, you can remove the main jet plug and be ready to catch some fuel~if no fuel we will note it and move on.

Do you know how to hot wire the ign? We need to get the spark before we look to anything else. Are your points good a clean now?

Another couple of points~did you get the wires on correctly and I mean absolutely positive. And are you sure of your placement of the distributor as far as timing is concerned?

Do you have the manual from MMI so worth while.

Dave Neptune
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:48 PM
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Hey Cody. I know it's too late now but for future projects (I follow a good rule): fix or change one thing at a time. Run it for a period of time before the next job. Cuts down on mystery.
Do you keep your boat at Little Creek?
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merchantmariner View Post
4- A friend with a voltmeter determined that the 12 v across the coil was intermittent and I discovered the negative lead wire was nearly fallen out. New end, replaced, problem solved. 12v loud and clear.
Reading your post, this comment caught my attention. The ONLY time you should read 12V across the coil is when the points are closed. The small [-] post is not a solid ground, it's a ground switched on and off by the opening and closing of the points. I'm not saying I see a problem here but it's important that you know what to expect as you draw conclusions from your tests and measurements.

I'd also be interested in hearing exactly how you determined TDC.
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:05 AM
merchantmariner merchantmariner is offline
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Fix one thing at a time? What a novel concept! Yes sir, that was my plan. Unfortunately I just kept seeming to uncover (or cause) more jobs...

Dave, no fuse, which surprised me.
Fuel is getting through just fine now.
To be clear, on the Zenith 61 carb, you are referring to the knurled screw on top right?
I just discovered that. I was speaking of the needle valve on the bottom, angled away from the flame arrestor.

However, she now runs! I started this thread and then went back at it but it wasn't until I enlisted my old man (electrical engineer) for help that we narrowed it down. Somehow I inherited none of his knack for understanding electrons...

He showed up with his volt meter and we located the problem. The negative wire from the coil connects to the distributor via a bolt through the housing. To keep the bolt from shorting the circuit, there is a plastic washer on each side and some rubber tubingng over the threads. Being 50 some years old, it was obviously near gone. Apprently in my point setting escapade, I had dislodged it and caused the short. Thank God for dads...

Some shrink tubing fixed this problem and I had spark once again.

After a much needed dinner I went back and set the timing. How did I find TDC? Feel for compression in #1 then rotate counter clockwise until the pin is vertical.

I set the timing just to where the 12v across the coil went off.

Checking everything over once more, I gave her full choke, a touch of throttle, and voila! She started.

I made quite a scene dancing a jig and singing at the marina...

So is it all done now? Not yet. The plugs are dirty so I assume she is too rich. Yet I can't run her without about 3/4 choke so that makes me think its too lean...

Mixture adjustment I assume?

Thanks for the replies gents. The internet can be an amazing resource at times.

P.S. Bill McLean, Yes Sir, I am at Pelicans Nest. Across from Vinings.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:12 AM
JOHN COOKSON
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:51 AM
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Cody, that's probably the best, most concise description of properly finding TDC we've ever seen. Well done.

The shorted terminal in the distributor raises a concern over the health of the new coil depending on how long the ignition was energized before the short was found. Any more than a minute and I'd replace the coil again on principle. The goal is a reliable engine and as boat expenses go, a coil is cheap.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:18 AM
merchantmariner merchantmariner is offline
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Neal, thank you Sir. Yes, I was a bit concerned about the new coil but I think it is fine. I get 12 strong volts across it and she starts like a champ now. I have an extra one just in case though.

I'm off this morning to attempt to get this mixture right. The jet adjustment (on the bottom) needs to be 2.5 turns out according to my reading so I will start there. She used to run and idle fine with no choke prior to my working on her, I'd like to have it back there.

The plugs got very dirty very quickly, however, this engine hasn't been cleaned in ages and now with all the cleaners (marvel and seafoam) added, perhaps its just old crud breaking free.?

Some whitish smoke is coming off the engine, I can't pinpoint where from so at this point I just think its oil, degreaser, etc, that dirtied the engine during my oil change and other work.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merchantmariner View Post
Neal, thank you Sir. Yes, I was a bit concerned about the new coil but I think it is fine. I get 12 strong volts across it and she starts like a champ now. I have an extra one just in case though
Coil damage won't show up until the coil is in use for a while, probably at least an hour. The usual symptom is engine power loss and shut down, difficulty restarting until the coil cools (maybe a half hour) then she'll start and run fine for another 45 minutes to an hour only to repeat again with shorter run times as the cycle progresses. We usually see this in electronic ignitions but a heat damaged coil is still damaged.

Is the spare coil new?
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:12 PM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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I, too, have the adjustable main jet. Mine is open about 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 turns - suspect yours is too far open.
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:09 PM
merchantmariner merchantmariner is offline
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OK Gents, new info.

I was looking through my info on the Zenith 61 Carb this fine morning and it seems the needle screw on the bottom does adjust fuel. And the recommended setting was 2.5 turns open (meaning more fuel/richer).

So off to the boat I went and set her at 2.5
I set the idle adjust (on top) to 1.5 open turns.

Full choke, touch of throttle, prime, and ignition. Off she went and I was immediately able to begin reducing choke. After 5 minutes I had the choke open fully and she was idling away happily. I let her warm up for about 15 minutes total and then got underway. I motored for about 35 minutes after that, much at full throttle and she never skipped a beat.

There was a white smoke/vapor coming off the engine, but I couldn't pinpoint a source so I assumed it was just oil and cleaner on the block that was steaming off. Once warmed up, the exhaust was minimal and very light.

Tonight I repeated this mornings run with the same results except no smoke off the block which confirms my assumption that it was just crud burning.

There is just one symptom that I cant figure, though it doesn't seem to affect performance. There seems to be a hissing sound coming from the front of the engine. It's stronger when in gear but throttle adjustments dont seem to affect it. I couldnt really pinpoint it because I was at the helm and couldnt go below. Thoughts?

Neal, spare coil is old. I'm pretty sure the current one is A-OK after todays tests but I will get a new spare anyhow after the next payday. Has anyone else noticed that boats are expensive?

It's nice to have her running though. I just need something that will wipe a permanent grin off my face.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:06 PM
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Marian Claire Marian Claire is offline
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The adjustable main jet is just that "adjustable". As Al notes his setting is what works for him. Depending on how you use your boat effects how you set the main jet. Note not all A-4s have the adjustable main jet. I know mine is less/leaner than the factory spec. I set it when fully warm and at cruising RPM and leaned out to maximize fuel mileage, to a point. You will find what works for you.
Well done.
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merchantmariner View Post
OK Gents, new info.

...seems to be a hissing sound coming from the front of the engine. It's stronger when in gear but throttle adjustments dont seem to affect it. I couldnt really pinpoint it because I was at the helm and couldnt go below. Thoughts?
Might be the sound of the air getting pulled through the element. It lives on the front (presuming no V drive) of the carb. A mechanic's stethoscope or a wood dowel pressed against your ear can help isolate noises - just keep whatever out of the turny-bits.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:35 PM
merchantmariner merchantmariner is offline
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Right. And Im sure that the older the engines get, the more the proper setting may vary.

Im going to try fiddling with it next time to see if performance can get any better but it will be a while as I have a boat to catch tomorrow and wont be back for about a month this time.

Thanks again all for the help. I'm sure I'll have more in the future.

Until then,
Cheers,
Cody
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:41 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanook View Post
Might be the sound of the air getting pulled through the element. It lives on the front (presuming no V drive) of the carb. A mechanic's stethoscope or a wood dowel pressed against your ear can help isolate noises - just keep whatever out of the turny-bits.
Try cleaning the back flame arrestor mentioned above. I use solvent and a soft brush. This may change or reduce the hiss but will not entirely eliminate it. Some amount hiss is normal as air gets pulled through the element.
You can start the engine while the back flame arrestor is off to see if it is the source of the hiss.

TRUE GRIT

Cody: Dang you're a quick learner. Stick around. You are going to be a real asset to the forum.
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Old 02-21-2017, 03:51 PM
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Cody: Dang you're a quick learner. Stick around. You are going to be a real asset to the forum.
+1 - and welcome to the forum. We were all nOOb's once!
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:24 PM
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Cody: Dang you're a quick learner. Stick around. You are going to be a real asset to the forum.[/QUOTE]

I know, right? I think I will be asking Cody for advice in a few months! And he is right down Ocean View Ave from me.
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:53 PM
merchantmariner merchantmariner is offline
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The flame arrestor is shiny clean. In fact I wondered if perhaps that was itself the cause of the whistling as the air went over the sharp vanes. Before it was dusty and greasy and would have dampened the sound.

Thanks all, I'm not so much of a quick learner as the A4 is a simple engine methinks.

Bill, maybe I can stop by and see Valhalla sometime. I'm working now but I'll shoot you a PM when I get ashore again in 3 weeks.
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