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Old 12-19-2011, 12:19 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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Engine fire extinquisher system and fuses

I was wondering if any of you guys have experience with selecting and
installing a automatic fire extinquisher system for the engine compartment.
In the case of my Tartan 34c, the engine, batteries, regulators,battery
fuse and fuel tank are located in near proximity.

What type of automatic safety equipment is available?

Also with regard to Main battery fuse, are there intrinsically safe breakers
available?

Best Regards

Art
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:00 PM
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Smile 10 lb extinguishers ...

Art,
If everything is in a confined space it's relatively easy. For example, a 10lb dry chemical could be mounted in a lazarette and its nozzel through a bulkhead and into the engine compartment. Pull the pin and it would knock down any fire in that space.

The problem occurs when the space is large or there are no bulkheads actually enclosing the space. The dry chemical then may be dispersed too much to be effective. This is the situation on my boat. I have a 10 lb'er on one side of the lazarette and the nozzel pointed toward the engine...pull pin and squeeze. The whole area is not sealed off so it may or may not put a fire down first shot.

Proper safety regarding fuel issues should prevent "explosive" incidents. In the case of explosion these are, violent and immediate. You could not activate the device. The best you can do is PREVENT or put out a fire after... if you are able.

Most fires on boats are not explosive. However, they must be extinguished. The main problem is not having enough "umph" in the fire extinguisher. I'll phrase it like this...it's like going up against a machine gun with a .38 revolver. If the extinguisher is too small the chances of it working out for you are limited from the start.

Odyssey's fire extinguishers....(4) 10lb dry chemical and (2) 5 lbs dry chemical..the only reason there are 5 lb extinguishers on the boat is because she came with them. One 10 lb'er can knock down a decent fire....the other are just in case.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:19 PM
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Thanks for the input Maurice

You are right, fuel related explosions are immediate and probably a
automatic fire extinqusher system would not be fast enough to prevent
a fire or explosion. Besides that, they are subject to possible accidental
activation and could create havoc with components.
I was hoping that some sort of foam bath for the engine could prevent
this issue. Maybe it could prevent a explosion when a fire occurred prior
to the explosion.
I have previously installed a fume detector alarm, possibly
that combined with a installed extinquisher as you suggestwould give time to
spray the compartment and prevent explosion.

The other method, as you mention, is to carefully monitor wiring,
fuses.

A few years back, I installed a 100A? fuse in the primary ckt of the
battery. The fear I have is that this fuse could catch fire and
not blow clean. There must be breakers or fuses that could
prevent this.

Regards

Arr
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:58 PM
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An excellent thread to open up! My thoughts turn to the Fireboy automatic units. I was looking them up and they have models to cover various cubic footage. They have diesel and gasoline specific models and the agent is not supposed to harm or contaminate the boat after discharge. I know the dry chemical ones can damage and corrode any electronics. They trigger at a certain temperature and/or manually.

I do not know of any systems that will prevent a fire, only react to one already in progress. This is where the fume sniffers would come in handy. Anybody got specs on a fume sniffer that is comercially available? I know some of you have Pearsons that came with them installed but that part manufacturer is no longer running.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:08 PM
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My 67 C&C Corvette had an automatic Halon fire extinguisher system mounted in the engine compartment but I removed it as it had long ago passed it's final inspection date.

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Old 12-19-2011, 10:59 PM
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Micah, I think Neil has a sniffer in his boat. That might be for the CNG/propane system though..I cannot recall at this time.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtJ View Post

A few years back, I installed a 100A? fuse in the primary ckt of the
battery. The fear I have is that this fuse could catch fire and
not blow clean. There must be breakers or fuses that could
prevent this.

Regards

Arr
The ANL fuses, sold by Defender and others, are ignition protected and rated for gasoline boats:

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?...931&id=1334628
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:12 AM
Dockside Charlie Dockside Charlie is offline
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Fire Boy "Halon" has been a popular fire suppressant for quite a while.Dry chemical extinguishers should be kept onboard for the last resort of a fire not suppressed by the Halon.Halon activation interupts the flame travel and gives option to control the event.Dry chemical,if necessary will help to complete extinguish a fire,if necessary, but does have corrosive side effects,that is if the fire does'nt overwhelm the vessel.The best preventative measure is a thoughtful,carefully thought out installation of electrical componants in possible fuel(vapors) source.Ventilation,separation as possible.
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:50 AM
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Thanks guys for the excellent suggestions. I believe West Marine carries
gasolline fume alarms. I installed one a number of years ago. Really
appreciated all the information on extinquishers. We had someone at
my club aboard troubleshooting a electrical problem who was severely
burned persumptously by live ckts in the presence of fumes.

regards

Art
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:12 AM
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My boat came with an older, small FireBoy automatic discharge halon unit installed in the engine box. I wanted to have a qualified technician check it out to confirm it was still good, but I couldn't find anyone who would touch it. The guy told me to just weight it and as long as it weighs what it's supposed to, it should still be good. I contacted FireBoy and asked the question and was told the same thing. I was glad to find it weighs exactly what it is supposed to, because they are impressively expensive to buy new.

Come to think of it, I need to figure out where I can fit it now that I've installed FWC. The heat exchanger is now hanging right where the extinguisher was before.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:40 AM
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As Shawn said, I have the Xintex MB-1R fume detection system installed.
http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/MB1.html

It has audio and visual alarms and operates the blower when combustible fumes are detected. I keep it on at all times, even when I'm not there.
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Old 12-20-2011, 10:53 AM
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Smile Good plan Neil.

Neil,
That's about as good as it gets. Prevention is the key.

I'd like to make a suggestion about extinguisher placement in the boat. I've seen lots in the galley area where galley fires are anticipated.

Placement of Extinguishers:
Extinguishers should be located in areas where you may access them easily while leaving the boat. The first thing to is move to a safe area, grab an extinguisher then attack the fire. No good trying to haul an extinguisher off the rack when flames are licking at your face.

Fire safe training has always dictated that you leave the area and do not return to fight the fire. If you are along side make the decision to fight or not and call 911. If you are at sea you have no choice...you need to get that fire out. Once fiberglass gets going it's hard to put out...so get that fire out fast. And you will have to do it.

Extinguisher locations on Odyssey.

-10 lbs....base of mast
-10 lbs....stb lazarette. Stb lazarette is enclosed with hole through bulhead and extinguisher nozed pointed in engine compartment through a hole. This also counts as my outside extinguisher. Because it is down in a sealed lazarette, fire in the boat will not interfere with my access to it. If I pull the pin and squeeze it will empty into the engine compartment and under cockpit area. If I need to pull it out and unload it into the boat it comes out just by lifting straight up...nozzel also will come...I've tried it.
-10 lbs....V birth Prt side...for exiting the forward hatch. Can then make a decision if you want to fight fire from there and extinguisher is available.
-10 lbs... stb settee area.
-5 lb in closet stb side...came with the boat and I left them where it was.
-5 lb at base of steps....came with the boat and I left them where it was.

I think I paid either $39 or $49 (can't remember now) for each 10 lb extinguisher at Costco. So let's say fire system cost $200. Really not that bad.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:08 AM
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What I'd like to do is add one of Fireboy's automatic Clean Agent extinguishers (No Halon anymore) and connect it in a tiered system. The first tier would be the detector that automatically turns on the blower to evacuate any combustible fumes, the second tier would be the extinguisher that detects heat and discharges into the engine space and at the same time shuts down the blower. We don't want to exhaust all that precious extinguishing gas.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
The ANL fuses, sold by Defender and others, are ignition protected and rated for gasoline boats:

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?...931&id=1334628
I (mistakenly?) in the past took ignition protected to mean it somehow
protected engine ignition electrical parts, should I have read this
as FUSE IS FLAME IGNiTION PROOF as in flamming of the fuse and surrounding fumes?

Regards

Art
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:11 AM
Dockside Charlie Dockside Charlie is offline
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Ignition protected is intended to mean the electrical componant,bat-chgr,pump,alt,dist,str,blwr,fuse,etc.in it's normal function,could possibly create a fuel source to ignite/combust(hydrg-gas from batteries,gasoline fumes,diesel or lube oil leaks on heated surfaces creating flammable vapors,propane)less likely but not garrenteed to ignite unintentionaly or expectedly.These units are resistant to,not infallible and do not relate to points and plugs firing the engines running.Safety is the focus.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:52 AM
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Charlie

Are you saying that the fuse itself will not create sparks or flame due to
unique construction?

Thanks and Regards
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:10 AM
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Art - I have a 150 amp Blue Seas System breaker intstalled in the negative side of the battery cable run under the galley with a bulkhead separating it from the engine room. Inside the engine room I have the Fireboy Halon automatic unit which is still holding charge after 18 years. I"m told it is OK with the CG but cannot be replaced or recharged. I also carry both CO2 and dry chemical units.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:38 AM
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Smile check this out

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...s.html?cmp=rss

When fiberglass catches fire it is a job and a half to put it out.
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The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
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Last edited by Mo; 12-21-2011 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:04 PM
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I've actually fought a big fiberglass fire, a Columbia 45 hull in the mold and totally engulfed. I was helping a retired Navy fireman (the engine man on our line) operate a fire hose about 15 feet in front of the flames.

It burns like nothing you've ever seen, truly a chemical fire. At Islander we were told it takes a floating 28 footer only 10 minutes to burn to the waterline.
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Old 12-21-2011, 03:09 PM
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Thanks Mo, Neil and Hanley

Hanley Glad to see you are all nestled down in Florida!
]
]Best Regards

Art
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:13 PM
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A friend of mine almost had a horrible accident. He had been motoring all day, had stopped and anchored for the night, and was in his dinghy scrubbing the stern of diesel soot when he saw smoke pouring out the back storage hatch.

The short version of this long story is after doing some starter motor work the battery cable ran slightly differently and was rubbing against a metal bracket. It went to a dead short when he stopped for the night, and the ends of the battery cables were melting their insulation and the battery switches were turning to slag, so he could not switch the batteries off.

That's a good argument for having a heavy duty fuse at a good point in the circuit.

-Jonathan
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtJ View Post
I (mistakenly?) in the past took ignition protected to mean it somehow
protected engine ignition electrical parts, should I have read this
as FUSE IS FLAME IGNiTION PROOF as in flamming of the fuse and surrounding fumes?

Regards

Art
Ignition protected means it will not ignite a flamable vapor mixture.


Funny story: Years ago, when I worked for the Navy dept, we had these big, heavy black plastic flashlights that were ignition protected, but back then, they were labled as "Explosion Proof". One of my co-workers noticed that for the first time and said "Really? That's cool!", and proceeded to test it by smashing the flashlight on the edge of the workbench!

The look on his face was priceless when the flashlight head shattered into a dozen pieces!
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Old 12-24-2011, 08:48 AM
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If any of you were navy engineers you already know this but there are three basic types of extinguishers. A B and C. Alpha is anything that leaves an ash like wood and fiberglass. Dry chemicals are worthless on this one because they don't cool the burning material. Bravo is fuels. DON'T use WATER ON THIS ONE. Charlie is electrical. DON"T USE CO2. Electricity can travel through it and get you.
I don't give a squat what the coast guard says about my 3 CO2 extinguishers, from lots of experience I am using them if it's wood. It is the only one with any kind of cooling effect. If we're hooked up to shore power and it's in an electrical conduit it's dangerous though.

The dry chemicals are great for fuel and that's really about it. They may knock down a class Alpha fire but not for long. If this is all you have then knock it down by aiming at the base of the fire then cool it with water.

I have 8 fire extinguishers. 3 CO2 and the rest dry chemicals. Halon is next. Halon is some great stuff. I've been in enginerooms twice now where a class Bravo fuel fire in the bilge nearly got out of control. I was the fire team leader and we had already exhausted most of our foam and we had dual hoses shooting foam and dry chemicals. Let me tell you, when several thousand gallons of jet fuel ignites on a 900 degree steam pipe that isn't going to cool down anytime soon, it's not a lot of fun putting it out. I ordered the halon activated both times while still in the space. My team had OBA's on so we weren't breathing it. The halon is a refrigerant so it does cool things to a degree. It also instantly knocked the fire out. All we had left was pumping the mess overboard and washing down any remaining flammables.

If you can afford a halon system GET IT! They work like nothing else. Just clear the area after it is dumped. If I remember right when it comes into contact with fire it turns into phosgene gas. Very bad stuff to breath. Also if you have to dump it, Seal everything up on the outside. It works by taking away oxygen. We always had a 30 minute rule with it in the navy.

Take this info for what it's worth. I don't know squat according to the coast guard. I'm only retired navy and they are the gods of at sea safety.
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Old 12-24-2011, 08:57 AM
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Thank you for that post, rranch. I do have the Halon automatic in the engine room. I also carry CO2 and one dry chemical (for coast guard inspectoion).
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:11 AM
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My surveyor just told me I had to get rid of my CO2. He said they aren't coast guard approved anymore. I called the CG and couldn't get an answer. Just a heads up. I'm not getting rid of anything. I'd get more fire extinguishers though. We have at least 2 in each section of the boat. Overkill. I don't care though. I've never relied on someone else to put out my fires and I'm not letting my boat go down from one either.

Another tip for dry chemical I learned. Sailboats are tight. If you can't get near the actual source of the flame then shoot it at a bulkhead or engine block or something near it to disburse the chemical. I have done that a lot in bilge fires where we couldn't get close enough. Most of them only shoot a solid stream out and that's about worthless. Especially if it's something like a pan of hot grease on your stove. Bounce it off the wall behind it to smother the whole area. Some of these extinguishers have enough pressure that if you blast the pan you just end up with a bigger fire. I learned a lot about galley fires on my last ship. Those officers were dangerous in the wardroom.
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