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  #1   IP: 66.126.90.242
Old 06-25-2007, 12:07 PM
Kurt Kurt is offline
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Semi-Annual Vinegar Flush and other question

So, this weekend I did a Muriatic acid flush on my late model Atomic 4 and then proceeded to do the pressure water flush with a kit purchased from Moyer. That was a pretty tough/time consuming job and I'm sure glad I'll only have to do it once every three years! 2 questions. When I flushed the aft section of the block (water intake in aft drain hole), the discharge water ran perfectly clear - no crud at all. When I flushed the forward section, it was so plugged that I only got a trickle of water at the discharge hose. After probing in that hole with a coat hanger and flushing again, it worked and a bunch of black crud came out. Is that normal to have one section of the block run clear and the other be filled with crud?

Also, the previous owner of this engine flushed the block with 2 gallons of straight vinegar twice a year using a T valve arrangement. He only let it sit for about 2 hours each time. I was wondering if I can keep my cooling passages in better shape by letting 2 gallons of straight vinegar sit in the engine for about 12 hours twice a year. Is there any possible risk to doing this? I was amazed at what 12 hours of vinegar soaking did to my incredibly gunked up thermostat (it went from looking like trash to looking brand new) so I was thinking that it might really clean up the cooling passages of the engine too.

Appreciate any insight.
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:51 AM
luvmyi36 luvmyi36 is offline
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Kurt,

I do not have any insight to your question, just thought I would give it a bump because I would like to hear thoughts on this as well!
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Old 06-26-2007, 12:04 PM
Chris T Chris T is offline
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Vinegar Flush

I fill and soak my FWC in vinegar and it cleans very well. I can't see a problem here as it's biodegradable. Chris
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:38 PM
forcenine forcenine is offline
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Hurrah for Vinegar

I'm cleaning up crud all the time with vinegar now.

I did a muratic flush previously, which apparently blew blockages from aft block drain hole, and in my haste to wipe up the liquid spewed everywhere I breathed in the acid steaming off the engine. Of course my bilge blower was not operating at the time. Sent me to the doctor for an X ray and had to use an inhaler for 2 weeks to clear lungs. Long live granny's vinegar.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:05 PM
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Can you do this vinegar wash while the boat is in the water, let it run through the cooling system and let it stand for a couple of hours?

When you run the engine to flush out the vinegar, will it have any adverse effects to the lake?

We certainly ingest enough of it ourselves.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:25 PM
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Acetic Acid Rinse

I have had good results with Acetic Acid ( (HAc) or (Vinager) ).

I am lucky to work in a biotech lab, so I can get Glacial Acetic Acid for free.

I took some concentrate, diluted it to ~10%.

Next I closed the water pump through hull, and disconnected that hose from the water pump.

After attaching a longer temporary hose to the water pump I put the end of the hose in a bucket of HAc, ran it through, let it soak, then replumbed and rinsed with salt water (SF Bay).

Vinager is a naturally occuring compound and dilutes and biodegrades easily.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:26 PM
Kurt Kurt is offline
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I have always done the vinegar flush with the boat in the water. I don't see any harm to letting the vinegar solution go out into the lake. It is a natural substance and will get diluted quickly. The A4 cooling doesn't have such a large capacity to result in anymore than 2 gallons or so leaving the system and going into the lake. Muriatic Acid is probably more of an environmental concern, although the acid is neutralized pretty quickly by water.

Just my take on it. I would be much more concerned about things like oil, sewage and fuel ending up in the water.
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:29 PM
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Kurt, how long to you leave the vinegar in the engine? Mark S
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Old 04-29-2009, 07:59 PM
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Baltimore Sailor Baltimore Sailor is offline
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In this forum most suggest to leave the vinegar in for about 24 hours, or at least overnight.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:26 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up Vinegar

I have used it in the my salt water cooled A-4 a few times. I do an acid flush whenever the engine starts to run warm and the bypass valve (no thermostat) won't keep the engine cool every 4-5 years sometimes longer between. I put the vinegar in about once every year or so the same way I do the acid flush. I use a 5 gallon bucket, put the water intake in the bucket and also put the exit line at the rear of the intake manifold in the same bucket and fire her up. I let her run for a while at idle until the bucket starts to warm up, shut her down and wait a day or three. I then reconnect and start her with the salt water to flush the vinegar. When I do the acid I don't run the engine I use a recirculating pump and bypass the water pump to keep the acid out of it. I run that for an hour or so then disconnect and hook up the salt water to flush.
The vinegar is good for cleaning all sorts of salt water corrosion away even in the head. It works wonders in the head by making the boat smell like a salad instead of a "porta-potty". I have recently installed an electric head (fourth year starting the fifth) for the wife and the vinegar seems to keep it running fine, ie no problems with the pump. I think it may be that the vinegar keeps the solids that form from the salt out thereby adding life to the electric pump. I had many friends tell me to stick with the manual because I would be replacing the pump every other year or so, NOT YET.

David Neptune
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:00 AM
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Why do you go to the trouble of running the outflow line back into the bucket? It seems to me all you really need to do is run the engine until it's warm, then put the intake hose in the bucket and suck in about three gallons of vinegar. The heat of the engine is going to warm up the vinegar anyway as it sits, and you wouldn't have to fuss with another hose connection.
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:12 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up The bucket

Baltimore, I use the bucket so the liquid acid or vinegar actually circulates and gets into everything. It also gives a good idea as to how much gunk is broken loose and gives much of it a place to settle. I was doing a flush on a friends boat that had been neglected and while trying to get it to circulate it actually kept plugging up where it comes out of the manifold. At least while we were doing the flush we could stop and break things loose with a wire.
I feel that by circulating it gets into everything a lot better. Besides it's just two hoses and I think a little heat helps. Besides on my ole E-35 the engine is in the middle of the boat which makes access very easy.
David
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:35 PM
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Mark - to answer your question - I used to do the Vinegar flush twice a year (fall and spring) and would leave it in the engine for about 3 hours - sometimes a couple hours longer. Even with that amount of time, I would always get gunk out of the engine upon start up after the flush. I recently converted my engine to fresh water cooled as I got sick of doing vinegar flushes, acid flushes and pressure flushes. Just a note on these flushes: when I took off my water jacket side plate to clean the cooling passages as well as I could prior to the FWC conversion, I was amazed at how clean they were after 32 years of raw water cooling. There was some black gunk and rust chips, but nothing like the nightmare I expected. I know the previous owner always did twice annual vinegar flushes so I would imagine that is the reason for the good condition of the cooling passages on this motor. He never did an acid flush. So, these flushes are definitely good cooling system maintenance.
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Old 07-13-2009, 03:11 PM
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Question Vinegar Flush

Is there any drawback to just running vinegar in through the FW inake and out the exhaust? It seems the vinegar would ungoo parts of the manifiold as well, no?
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:23 PM
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Bringing this older thread back. About to do my first vinegar flush on an A4 that runs fine. Just sounds like basic maintenance that we ought to do as we head into cooler days here. One question I have is where does one get gallons of vinegar? My grocery store only sells the smaller bottles. Do I dilute it or put in straight vinegar? Thanks...
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:55 PM
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Smile Try something rusty in vinegar.

Guys.
I don't think vinegar is of much value unless it is left for weeks on end. I had an old rusting crank handle for my A4 and put it in vinegar for a while. Although the vinegar turned rust colored it took 2 weeks before any "credible" rust came off it. The handle still had to be wire brushed as well. As a check, put a piece of rusted metal in a container and see how long it takes. For us to be thinking some appreciable benefit from vinegar as a flush we might need to keep with the muriatic acid.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:07 AM
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My old engine would gradually get warmer and warmer until it was running over 200 degrees. I would put out a bucket of vineager and run the exhaust into it too so the vineager was constantly recycling and let it run for half an hour. That seemd to reduce the running temp back down for a few months or so.
I do the flush now with the new engine before I put in antifreeze for the winter. The new engine runs cool anyway, but I figure it can't hurt. I never thought I was disolving RUST this way, but salt deposits, mud, goo, and jellyfish remnants.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:43 AM
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Rbyham,

You can get gallon jugs at Wal-mart if it is of the "super" variety.

I can get 2 gallon jugs at BJ's (Cosco, Sam's, etc.).

As Mo noted, I think that when 'choosing' between a vinegar flush or a muratic acid flush, you should ask yourself what you are trying to achieve. If I got my engine water jacket all cleaned out & spiffy, I'd use vinegar periodically to keep it that way. But if I hadn't done anything in a while, I'd get it cleaned with muratic & then 'maintain' the cleanliness with vinegar. In my experience, vinegar won't break down the dark, thick sludge that accumulates in the bottom of an engine's water jacket cooled by brackish/salt water.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:58 AM
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Too much of a good thing

Also consider the stronger muriatic acid eats away at the metal. If we follow Don's recommended dilution and soak time the erosion is not too much but know that a regular routine of muriatic acid flushes will take their toll over years. The first flush I did included rusticles spitting out the exhaust, clearly not 100% organic goo. The second and last flush, right before converting to FWC and following a strict regimen of fresh water flushes after each use since the first acid flush, was rusticle free.
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:23 AM
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Thumbs up Vinegar~acid

Vinegar will eventually get most of the rust however the acid will attack it in minutes. Acid is the best for getting the rust cleared out, however not often necessary.
In a raw water engine it is not just the rust that attaches inside the block and passages, it is a calcification of all the lil critters bodies and the other stuff in the water as well as the salts if in salt water. In most cases if you do a vinegar "SOAK" and let it sit for a week or so it breaks down the organic deposits and releases a good deal of the rust with it. If a vinegar "SOAK" does not help flow and temps it's then time for the acid.

Raw water cooled A-4 going on 44th year.

IMHO
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:45 AM
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Do you think a soak beats 30-60 minutes of running with the vineager recirculating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Vinegar will eventually get most of the rust however the acid will attack it in minutes. Acid is the best for getting the rust cleared out, however not often necessary.
In a raw water engine it is not just the rust that attaches inside the block and passages, it is a calcification of all the lil critters bodies and the other stuff in the water as well as the salts if in salt water. In most cases if you do a vinegar "SOAK" and let it sit for a week or so it breaks down the organic deposits and releases a good deal of the rust with it. If a vinegar "SOAK" does not help flow and temps it's then time for the acid.

Raw water cooled A-4 going on 44th year.

IMHO
Dave Neptune
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:57 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up Heat helps

Joe, yes I do think the soak does work better. The added temp of the engine running helps too. When I do mine I start the engine 3 or 4 times while the vinegar sits in the block. I just keep the pump out of the equation. I run the engine until I see around 150 then shut it down, no "vinegar" circulating though.

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:18 PM
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I am not using a seperate pump - I just run the exhaust hose into the same bucket the intake hose is in and the vinegar goes around and around as the engine runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Joe, yes I do think the soak does work better. The added temp of the engine running helps too. When I do mine I start the engine 3 or 4 times while the vinegar sits in the block. I just keep the pump out of the equation. I run the engine until I see around 150 then shut it down, no "vinegar" circulating though.

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:47 PM
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Lightbulb Me too, sorta

Joe, that is the same way I do my "acid flushes". However I use a centrifugal bronze pump from work that is OK with the acid and I do it with a warmed running engine. It is amazing how much krap dissolves in the acid in just a couple of minutes.

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:33 PM
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I agree with the suggestions from Don...

I did an acid flush when I first got the boat and had overheat symptoms.
Since then I've done a vinegar flush every other year and it keeps "the plumbing nice and clean"

In addition, I suggest also doing the PRESSURE FLUSH" to do the full colon blow.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...pressure+flush

And, as Dave and Joe discussed, I run the engine to get the solution warm.
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